Author Topic: Getting players to use more spells.  (Read 11353 times)

Offline Bluddy

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2012, 11:35:28 am »
I think you could still pull off restricting some spells randomly (according to some method). I think people would understand that it ultimately helps the game's balance and longevity -- I mean you want to keep people interested in the game for a long time.

Regarding restricting the new spells that are to come: that's all well and good, but there also needs to be a reason to get those extra spells. Right now one can do everything with a fraction of the existing repertoire.

Offline dis astranagant

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2012, 06:02:30 pm »
While we're griping about spells, it would be nice if upgrading them was less of a bore.  The only thing that ever changes is some numbers getting bigger.  They behave the same at all levels, which contributes to the samey feeling one gets as they move up through game.  Maybe the rapid fire spells could shoot multiple projectiles and things like ball lightning pierce a few enemies and the whips get longer and wider.  Just something to make it feel like you're progressing in ways besides just numbers getting bigger.  Leveling storm dash could let you cause air damage to anything you run into, perhaps becoming a small aoe around you as it gets higher.

E: use this to differentiate the spells.  Forest rage can get extra projectiles while plasma bolt pierces and so on.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 07:46:37 pm by dis astranagant »

Offline nanostrike

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2012, 10:30:34 pm »
While we're griping about spells, it would be nice if upgrading them was less of a bore.  The only thing that ever changes is some numbers getting bigger.  They behave the same at all levels, which contributes to the samey feeling one gets as they move up through game.  Maybe the rapid fire spells could shoot multiple projectiles and things like ball lightning pierce a few enemies and the whips get longer and wider.  Just something to make it feel like you're progressing in ways besides just numbers getting bigger.  Leveling storm dash could let you cause air damage to anything you run into, perhaps becoming a small aoe around you as it gets higher.

E: use this to differentiate the spells.  Forest rage can get extra projectiles while plasma bolt pierces and so on.


THIS!  Oh dear god, this.  I expected Fireball to get bigger each level and such.  When I saw it didn't, it really killed my drive to press on and get the upgrades quickly.  With a lot of the spells, it's not even a huge damage boost.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2012, 11:41:09 pm »
No, Bluddy, I haven't played that game and I'm not entirely sure it would interest me, but I'll take a poke at its reviews and discussions.

(and Wanderer: to respond to "why force it?": what would the impact on AIW be if all bonus types were always available to research?  It used to be that way pre-1.0 of that game). 

Ah, but, what's the purpose of AIW vs. AVWW?  AI War is currently an enforced adaptive environment requiring a commitment of 10-13 hours (or more) to play a single game to a win/loss conclusion.  There's a hundred little fights but it's a grand strategy game requiring mobility of thought and adaptive tactics while understanding the implications to a larger strategy.

A win/loss in AVWW is usually about 15 seconds.  Then you've moved to the next win/loss.  In 30 minutes I don't get much done sometimes in AIW, except perhaps push forward a minor goal or maybe setup a major one, at least after the early game.  In AVWW I've popped into 5 buildings, gotten an enchant (hopefully a decent one), done 3 missions, pushed the continent tier up, and probably whacked a few mini-bosses and picked up sapphires for my Aqua Burst in a gem vein.

The gameplay is completely different.  The feel and style of the game is completely different.  And, I guess, what I want out of the game is completely different.  AVWW is the kind of game I can pick up for 20 minutes before dinner and feel like I got something done.  Booting up a game of AI War requires me to sit down with the map on pause for ten minutes and figure out where I was and what I was doing, and that's WITH notes that *I* wrote!  YESTERDAY!

This is a very casual game to me in both style and my expectations of it. Some days it's: "Mission TIME!  We eat the overlord today!"  Others it's "Oh, I think I'll see if I can find some coral today."  Sometimes it's "I want to drop a Wind Shelter.  Which means I need Aquamancer 3 which needs X which needs Stonebuilder 2 whom I don't apparently have.  Why not?  Oh, he wants this, which requires lumbermancer.... seriously.  Right.  I need Earth Essence and I'll do some missions for a few buildings.  Maybe I'll find what I'm looking for."  Still casual. :)

This is why I feel forcing the playstyle to have to be deeper instead of just being deeper intrinsically once you get the hang of it is a bad idea.  This is a game that can attract anything from a casual gamer to the serious depth crowd.  I understand: from AI War you've gotten a very deep, seriously intricate type of player as a core for your products.  This is just not that kind of game to me.  That kind of depth also has a 7 hour steep learning curve for AI War to even pick up your first real game, which almost noone wins unless they set it to AI 2/2 or something.

This game reminds me a bit of another game I recently picked up, Recettear.  If you haven't played it, it's pretty whimsical.  You run an item shop for RPG adventurers and occassionally join them if you decide you want to.  Sometimes I'll boot up the game and just open the shop for a morning (~5-10 minutes).  Others I'll go grab an adventurer and do 5-10 dungeon levels.  It's open enough to allow you to decide how to spend your time and what you want to do with the game.  It's casual enough that I'm recommending it to friends to help 10 year olds learn time management and general merchandising.  Can you go amazingly deeper in the difficulty and strategy of the game?  Well, kind of.  There's a ton of tiny things that you can use to seriously improve your game.  But it's casual.

You'll note that the mechanics are completely and utterly different between the games, but it's the feel of the game.  AVWW is a light, pick it up for 10 minutes or 4 hours, and then walk away... at least it is to me. 

This is why I'm trying to understand the reasons behind enforcing the complexity on the game.  I just don't see it as that kind of intense game.  Does anyone here really want to see a need for a 7 hour tutorial for an Exploration Shmup?
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Offline Bluddy

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2012, 07:48:04 am »
Wanderer, I don't think it has to do with complexity as far as the player is concerned. Keith was just referring to AI War because that's what he's most familiar with and it's something he can refer you to. In Binding of Isaac, I must have played something like 100 games so far. And even though the game only goes on for 7 levels ie. it's not very long content-wise, the game has not become boring at all. The reason for this is the randomness of your choices and the things you encounter, but mostly your choices. If I could choose the weapon I like every game, the game would become boring very quickly. But because I'm given a different selection of weapons and upgrades each game, I get a different character each game, and that means I have to approach the challenges in a different way. Combine this with slowly unlocking new content in the game, random enemies, bosses and environments and you get a different experience every time. It's not a difficult mental exercise or anything -- the action is fast and furious. It's also a rogue-like-like with permadeath, so there's no guarantee you'll beat the game every time. Initially I lost most games, but at this point I know enough tricks to help me win most (but not all) the time, and yet each game I play still has its own unique challenges.

If you can choose the same spells every continent and if you're never forced to vary your style and therefore encounter different challenges, the game will just be boring. There's no way it'll be interesting to play many continents. OK, there's a chance that the random content on each continent will eventually be enough. But it's unlikely, and it's a shame not to make use of the huge variety of spells, which is an asset in the game, to increase the number of random challenges a player can encounter and hence the longevity of AVWW.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2012, 12:48:09 pm »
Hm, okay, I see your point but disagree.  Let's see if I can counter with another idea.  Let's turn to... CoD.  Not necessarily everyone's favorite toy but I think everyone's at least familiar.

If you look at the current list of range spells as simply Assault Rifles, they're all much of a sameness with slightly different stats and different 'feels'.  Sure you could constantly change weapons but you could just as effectively play the entire game with the starting Scar.  Are Rocket Launchers, Snipers, and shotguns different weapons?  Absolutely.  They affect gameplay very differently.  However these are choices for the player to swap to, not forced.  Imagine CoD taking away your Scar when you got the ACR for 'replayability'.  Or even worse, every five levels you were forced to swap classes entirely because none of the assault rifles came up as an option for now.

This is what options like you've discussed would do, in particular the Tier modification one.  I believe there are other, better ways to encourage replayability then random restraints of that nature.  If I can flesh them out enough in my head to see the pros and cons I'll send them along to the devs, but my personal life has basically exhausted me.  Might be partially why I was having difficulty seeing your point for more than what it struck me as.

Binding of Isaac definately sounds like a game I don't want to play.   Why?  I don't want to have to relearn the game mechanisms each new game, nor even every few levels during an enforced switch.  What I want to do is build on the knowledge I have gained into more interesting scenarios.

I'll back out of this conversation for now, thanks for your patience trying to help me understand your intent.  I do heavily disagree with the idea behind the mechanism though; I believe much better approaches can be found, though, to help replayability.
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Offline zebramatt

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2012, 01:23:10 pm »
Binding of Isaac is amazing!

Different strokes, huh?  :)

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2012, 02:00:41 pm »
I've already said this, but I quite like Bluddy's idea.  I'm already finding the choice of spells rather mind-boggling, and i'd like it to be winnowed in some way such that I can choose from a small group of spells. That said, I can see that annoying more mathy players who have DPS and such high in their minds.

perhaps something like it could be implemented in a way that would give you a choice, but an inconvenient one? Say, the game would pick two spells for each color to be the favored choices, and double/triple the cost of the rest of the spell list, so you'd have to do two missions to amass the rare components needed for a spell not on the list. It would want to start by picking an assault rifle spell, as Wanderer puts it, since in the current game you really do need one of those guananteed.

Perhaps there could be a small cost decrease for spells that you have unlocked at the previous tier, so favored spell costs would be 1x base cost, previously unlocked 2x, and other spells 3x.

Offline Bluddy

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2012, 02:15:36 pm »
I'm really glad you posted that Wanderer, because it made me realize that your perception of weapons in the game is very similar to the way Chris sees things. Chris also compares the game very heavily to an FPS, and during the beta the game resembled an FPS even more. So your thinking is probably right in line with Chris's. You also made me consider why it is the platformers and FPSs are different when it comes to weapons. And here's what I think:

Most FPSs don't have THAT many weapons. Sure, they have some different weapons, but not nearly as many as the number of spells we have in AVWW. So it's not a huge waste of resources if the player only sticks to one weapon. Nevertheless, single player campaigns in FPS games try to get the player to vary his weapons as much as they can. This is why they slowly feed new weapons to the player rather than giving him access to all the weapons at once. First you get the crowbar/knife, then the pistol, then the shotgun etc. You get to try each one out and it adds variety to the gameplay. Then, when they think you've had the most powerful weapons for too long of a time so you're probably not using all of your weapons, they strip you of your weapons completely! Remember that trick from Half Life and a thousand other games? The whole point there is that you start using your more basic weapons again.

There's another important point about FPSs and that's the fact that you have ammo that almost always varies by gun type (Deus Ex 2 being the notable exception). This ammo count limits how much you can use any particular weapon. It forces you to switch to different weapons to conserve ammo. So weapon variation is built into the basic mechanics of FPS games. When you run out of ammo for your machine gun, you have to switch to a gun or maybe even a knife, and the dynamic of the game changes.

But what about multiplayer FPS modes? Other than ammo mechanics (which are baked into the very fabric of FPSs), you don't really see too much enforcement of variation there. For one thing, I think the assumption is that players have already tried all the weapons. More important, I think there's another really big difference between an FPS and a side-scrolling platformer here that makes all the difference. In an FPS, you work in 3 dimensions. As such, the opportunity for different tactics, especially in PvP mode, is insane. Because there is no guarantee of a line of sight to your enemy, you can have ambushes, and you can approach the enemy from above unseen, or from a trench below, or from behind, or flush him out, or flank him. Expert FPS gamers can develop many customized tactics, some of which rely on specific weapons. Thus, the variation in gameplay comes from competing against the ingenuity of other human players because the space of possibilities for different tactics is just enormous. You don't need the variation in weapons to force you to use different tactics. You could have the same weapon and constantly try different tactics, many of which could be entirely psychological. Then you see another player using a slightly different weapon with completely different tactics and you try to emulate that. But weapons are a small part of the picture here. Aside from explosive types, it's mostly just a function of point and shoot. It's really human ingenuity applied to the massive solution space that makes multiplayer battles refreshing.

In a 2d game, this space is reduced tremendously. You see your enemy, he sees you, and you need to hit him. You can jump above him, approach him from different angles etc, but a huge amount of the variability in your tactics depends simply on what you can fire. This is particularly true when you have spells and elemental resistances involved. Some people may have better reflexes, some may have tricks and 'hacks' to deal with certain situations, but ultimately the variability isn't huge between players of similar skill levels. The variability comes from things like your weapon types, the environment you have to traverse, and the enemy types.

In addition, AVWW doesn't even have the single-player FPS mechanics of ammo or gradually introduced weapons to drive people to use different spells. But it does have a whole bunch of spells, most of which are not touched by many people. And over the course of a long game of AVWW, sticking with the same spells is going to make the game boring.

BTW I agree with you that forcing a switch every tier is probably too much. Per continent sounds much more reasonable to me.

And Binding of Isaac really is brilliant. I suggest you give it a try and see if you like it.

Martyn, I really like your idea of varying cost! But what if the game encouraged you to diversify, perhaps modified both randomly and by what you previously picked? I'd reverse your idea. Suppose the game randomly increased the cost of some spells and cheapened others per continent. This makes sense since each continent has its own 'spell economy'. But then, the game would make the cost of upgrading your current spell higher than the cost of getting any other spell. So you could choose to stick with only your current spells and work a little harder to do so, or you could try different spells and save resources. And instead of having to upgrade other spells through tier 1, 2, 3 to your current tier, you'd just buy them at your current tier. I think I saw you make that suggestion on another thread, Martyn.

Offline Penumbra

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2012, 02:26:31 pm »
BTW I agree with you that forcing a switch every tier is probably too much. Per continent sounds much more reasonable to me.

Before there was the guarantee of every type of terrain appearing on a continent, I was stuck in a place without any way to make lightning spells. It forced me to branch out and use different spells. This made me suggest a resource removal on a per-continent basis because it was a fun challenge.

Later, I thought that it might be too restrictive if a persons favorite spell were unavailable permanently on a continent, so I came up with a mission idea that would effectively be the same thing.  The overlord is hoarding a resource in a tower/fort/whatever that is visible from the beginning like a lieutenant tower, but at tier 3 or so. Until this structure is defeated, the resource being hoarded will not spawn in any way on the continent.   This would require players to use different spells and abilities while being denied the resource, yet still letting them win it back if they choose.

Offline Bluddy

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2012, 02:31:18 pm »
BTW I agree with you that forcing a switch every tier is probably too much. Per continent sounds much more reasonable to me.

Before there was the guarantee of every type of terrain appearing on a continent, I was stuck in a place without any way to make lightning spells. It forced me to branch out and use different spells. This made me suggest a resource removal on a per-continent basis because it was a fun challenge.

Later, I thought that it might be too restrictive if a persons favorite spell were unavailable permanently on a continent, so I came up with a mission idea that would effectively be the same thing.  The overlord is hoarding a resource in a tower/fort/whatever that is visible from the beginning like a lieutenant tower, but at tier 3 or so. Until this structure is defeated, the resource being hoarded will not spawn in any way on the continent.   This would require players to use different spells and abilities while being denied the resource, yet still letting them win it back if they choose.

I do really like that mission idea. But maybe also instead of removing certain resources, you could have certain tiles that are randomly higher tier by 2 levels due to some magical field? That would mean you can always get your favorite spells, but it'd be harder sometimes.

Offline Penumbra

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #41 on: May 01, 2012, 02:35:05 pm »
maybe also instead of removing certain resources, you could have certain tiles that are randomly higher tier by 2 levels due to some magical field? That would mean you can always get your favorite spells, but it'd be harder sometimes.

It's just that there are so many different zones resources can spawn in. To hinder players from getting a single resource, it would need to affect a great number of zones.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2012, 02:35:50 pm »
Busy at the moment with work, but these last two ideas you're discussing are much more interesting to me and more in-line with the 'encouragement' methods I personally could enjoy seeing.  However, it might be seen as an 'enforced mission' that would go against the grain.  An alternative is instead of being a punishment is to have it CHEAPEN a particular resource need and encourage users to go try the entropy spells (for example) because they're cheaper and now SAVE them time, instead of costing more if they don't do something that... costs them more.

Bluddy, that's a lot to respond to, but I will respond either here or in PM.  I need to finish going through it.
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Offline Bluddy

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2012, 02:36:15 pm »
maybe also instead of removing certain resources, you could have certain tiles that are randomly higher tier by 2 levels due to some magical field? That would mean you can always get your favorite spells, but it'd be harder sometimes.

It's just that there are so many different zones resources can spawn in. To hinder players from getting a single resource, it would need to affect a great number of zones.

Good point.

Offline Bluddy

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2012, 02:51:22 pm »
The problem with making spells cheaper rather than more expensive is that it allows you to game the system. If I want to get to a T2 fireball, I can buy another spell and then get a discount on T2 fireball.

EDIT: Nope. This cost system based on what you have doesn't work. Any way you slice it, even if you raise the cost of spells you have, it creates opportunities to game the system. The only thing you can have is that the continent is given random price adjustments.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 02:55:29 pm by Bluddy »