Author Topic: Getting players to use more spells.  (Read 11352 times)

Offline Professor Paul1290

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
Getting players to use more spells.
« on: April 27, 2012, 02:07:18 pm »
I've been seeing some of people's comments regarding the issue of players only using a couple projectile spells.

The thing is, after looking through some of the spells that are actually available, I don't think players are taking advantage of the variety of spells already there. I think this is very much due to the fact that "spell choice" is so dependent on "mission choice".

Due to the nature of the game, direct fire projectile spells are going to be the most commonly used spells, and they'll probably always be. They're the standard issue sword, power beam, assault rifle, or whatever you'd want to call it in this game.
There are a variety of other spells, but due to their more situational or specialized nature they're never going to beat the trusty primary armament if it becomes a choice between the two.

I think a lot of what prevents the use of other spells is that they compete with the direct fire projectiles for "mission-resources". Resources that only come from missions are already a somewhat demanding strategic choice in that they raise continent tier, so they aren't "easy" to get, so it becomes a contest of "this or that".
Like I mentioned above, that is a contest that in most cases non-projectile spells can never really win.

Usually, I like having a spell like Splashback or Summon Rhino to my arsenal, but eventually as I upgrade them they start competing with my main projectiles for resources from missions. After that I have to go rather far out of my way to get the resources to maintain them. I usually do as I use them fairly frequently, but I can see a lot of people being turned off by this.


With this in mind I almost think, and I know that this might be a bit too drastic, that spells that aren't direct-fire projectile spells shouldn't use mission-only resources at all except for Tier Orbs.
It would probably make a mess of some of the mission-only resources currently in right now (maybe they would have to be provided differently), but I think it would allow players to make better use of the spell variety that already exists.

I can't really speak for how everyone uses spells and maybe the way some other people play the game wouldn't work with this, so I thought I should put this out here for discussion.

Offline Bluddy

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2012, 02:33:29 pm »
I think this is very perceptive of you.

Perhaps there should be 'families' of spells bundled together. So when you craft long range spells, you also get the associated mid-range spell and close range spell.

But I think there's also another way to look at it -- is the variety of spells ever needed? Pretend that all spells are in one element. Do we really need fireball as well as lightning bolt? They're virtually the same. They may have different movement speeds or costs, but those can be modified by enchants anyway. I think a good role needs to be found for having multiple spells of the same type. This gets back to the issue of resistances from the beta. I made a suggestion on Mantis of having effects like burning and freezing that would help with this, but this will only help partially.

At the same time, we need good reason to have any spells other than long range snipe spells. I think with keyboard controls (it's virtually my motto) you have more of that since you can miss more easily and you can't shoot backwards, but even still -- there needs to be more justification for it. Perhaps all long range spells should be much weaker than mid range spells, which should be weaker than close range spells. Of course, with enchants, it's hard to make those differences mean anything. Or maybe long range spells should all be unreliable and have narrow aim -- they'll veer off the path and won't necessarily hit the target.

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2012, 04:28:48 pm »
I had a suggestion a while back for removing the "tech tree" --- as in, I don't see any good reason why you should need tier II lightning ball to make tier III.  I feel like if crafting was only a tier-long commitment rather than a continent-long one, you'd be willing to experiment with new spells a lot more.  Especially considering that there aren't really any other continent-long strategic considerations --- it's not like the overlord has a set of bonus ships and you're trying to find the best counters for them.

That wouldn't solve the problem of spells being too alike (although personally I haven't noticed this; I tend to use a lot of miasma whip and ice cross and other non-snipe things), but I think it would help players get a chance to use more spells if there are spells they want to use.

Offline Terraziel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2012, 04:35:47 pm »
I had a suggestion a while back for removing the "tech tree" --- as in, I don't see any good reason why you should need tier II lightning ball to make tier III.  I feel like if crafting was only a tier-long commitment rather than a continent-long one, you'd be willing to experiment with new spells a lot more.

See I change my main combat spells every continent and consider that to be encouraged variation. If the game gives you a risk free opportunity to change your spells and you don't take it then that is your fault.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2012, 10:01:17 pm »
I can't be bothered to change spells, honestly.  Heck, I even smack around rhinos with Forest Rage because it does more damage at T4 to them then the T1 that I didn't want to go collect resources for.

My fault?  Of course it is.

Reality?  Yeah.  I can get a LOT of distance out of a few key spells.  The lack of variety is due to both being expensive in my time and mission selections (particularly mid-tier when you're hunting down NPC buildings and windshelters for T2/3).  As an example, I've been trying to hunt down Earth Essence, a mission only reward, for a while now for Forest Rage T5.  I at best find 2 of these in any mission, usually 1, and then I don't have a lot of choice as there's only 1, maybe 2, missions with it.

Doing that for 4+ spells to 'keep my options open'?  Bah, no.  There's no reason for it.  The spells, in general, are much of a sameness.  The utility spells are quite useful, but that's an entirely different discussion.  Combat spells vary very little.  I don't use touch spells, getting in melee distance is built to be painful and possibly suicidal if you're wall-snagged.  Whip spells really are more of use as a chainsaw then a combat ability due to cost, and that's on a very heavily -mp cost character.  Instead of costing LESS mp due to distance, they cost MORE MP because of the damage capability.  Nah, I'll hang back here and shoot and dodge, thanks.  Less damage per strike, more Damage/time.

So, that leaves long range spells as your real 'need to upgrade'.  You typically need *1*.  Yep, one.  Oh, there's a few things out there that do 99% resistance so have a backup plan somewhere, but really it could be anything that you got via tripping on the supplies while getting stuff for other things.  I lean towards the high ROF items because they're the least likely to be dodged but even the slow high damage heavy thud ones are equivalent, really, when you come down to it.  It's not like you're likely to use a slow heavy item for Urban Crawlers and a high-speed one for anti-bat, which would at least add a little variety... because the slow heavy doesn't increase your DPS... why worry about it?

Add to that the need to have a platform assistant on your second mouse key 90% of the time.  Oh, sure if you've got one of them newfangled 5 button mouses or something you're good to go.  I don't, and clicking the middle button always is a challenge in 'Don't SPIN IT!!!... crap.  Get back there before this bat kills me!'

So, typically you've only got one combat spell loaded and ready, the rest are utilities.

Why was I going to go play with other spells again?  Do they really do anything different?  There's a few out there that are interesting, though, I agree, and goofing off with them at Tier 1 was fun.  Do they give me enough versatility to really go out of my way bringing those spells to T5 and having to hunt down the specialty items?  Heck, most of the time folks on Nomads seem to be hunting down Burnt Embers for their PRIMARY spell... really, we're going to do this for a situational spell that I've got to pause to go collect?

*shrugs*  Until combat spells are truly different in results, feel, and methodology, and add significant tactical value to different situations, I don't think you'll ever see much experimentation because the investment time can be too high.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2012, 10:07:39 pm »
I think the new mechanism for elites may have improved this somewhat --- basically, now the overlord does have bonus ships and I suspect that I may start choosing spells that are strong against whatever elites are giving me particular trouble.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2012, 10:15:02 pm »
I think the new mechanism for elites may have improved this somewhat --- basically, now the overlord does have bonus ships and I suspect that I may start choosing spells that are strong against whatever elites are giving me particular trouble.
I think it will help a little, but to a large extent it's still possible to "I don't care what color you are, eat forest-rage-autocannon!" ;)

I think the spell-family idea is an interesting one, though making them not too-large but also not really-arbitrary-seeming seems a bit tricky.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline LintMan

  • Full Member Mark III
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 02:41:59 am »
*shrugs*  Until combat spells are truly different in results, feel, and methodology, and add significant tactical value to different situations, I don't think you'll ever see much experimentation because the investment time can be too high.

Yes, this exactly.  I'd really like to go out and get all those other spells and try them out, but the time required to do so even for more than just a small handful of spells is too much.

The costs seem designed to force this sort of limited spell focus.  But that in turn means that the attack spells can't be too specialized (because if you're only going to get a two of them or so, they all need to be pretty general purpose.

I had assumed it was only me that had issues with the spell investment time/cost, so my solution to this was to request a "high resources/rewards" option that made the game give extra resources.   But maybe a cost rebalance might be warranted?

Offline Terraziel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2012, 07:25:11 am »
I feel people are missing the point I was trying to get across, I was not suggesting people should upgrade more than a couple of combat spells per continent, I sure don't.

My point was rather that (to make up some examples).

On Continent 1, I use Fireball and Ball Lightning
On Continent 2, I use Tidal Pulse and Forest Rage
On Continent 3, I use Creeping Death and Energy Pulse
Etc.

And there is no penalty to this. This is the reason that I don't see the need for to allow the extra variation WITHIN a continent.

Add to that the need to have a platform assistant on your second mouse key 90% of the time.  Oh, sure if you've got one of them newfangled 5 button mouses or something you're good to go.  I don't, and clicking the middle button always is a challenge in 'Don't SPIN IT!!!... crap.  Get back there before this bat kills me!'

I do note that you can assign a keyboard shortcut to Platforms, so there is no reason to have it on the mouse.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2012, 07:30:17 am »
I do note that you can assign a keyboard shortcut to Platforms, so there is no reason to have it on the mouse.

Unless you're midcombat, at which point the lack of dodging trying to find the key you assigned it to can get you killed... rather quickly if it's a specialized build.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Terraziel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2012, 07:31:57 am »
I do note that you can assign a keyboard shortcut to Platforms, so there is no reason to have it on the mouse.

Unless you're midcombat, at which point the lack of dodging trying to find the key you assigned it to can get you killed... rather quickly if it's a specialized build.

Then pick a better key?

Offline The Wuggly Ump

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 26
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2012, 12:25:02 pm »
I had a crazy, stupid idea last night and figured I'd throw it out there in case it was actually a good idea:

One of the many small things that bugs me about this game is how you lose so much of your progress when you move to a new continent. But what if, when you moved to a new continent, the game let you keep the progress you'd made on certain spells? Specifically, what if it allowed you to keep your progress only on spells that you hadn't used in the previous continent?

It sounds dumb, but it'd make players use more of the spells and I think it'd make for some really interesting tactical decisions - do I upgrade this spell that I can use now, or should I start upgrading a spell for the next continent? Should I use this secondary ranged attack I've been upgrading on this miniboss that's resistant to Earth, or should I try to get through spamming Forest Rage so I can have a powerful ranged attack next time?

Anyway, probably an ill-concieved idea, and probably difficult to implement, but I thought I'd put it out there regardless.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 02:34:15 pm by The Wuggly Ump »

Offline Bluddy

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2012, 04:48:10 pm »
I'd like some feedback on an idea I mantis'ed:

What if every spell was only available at one randomized tier? Each continent would randomize the tiers for spells. So fireball could be level 1 on one continent and level 4 on another. The key is that you CAN'T UPGRADE spells, since they occur at only one tier. When you research a spell, it'll always be another one of a higher level. For example, on some continents, tier 5 spells will all be melee because of random chance.

The advantages:
- You never feel like you're upgrading the spell to get the same spell only slightly stronger.
- You're always uncovering a new spell.
- This system takes you out of your element, making every continent a different experience. You can always try to get your favorites, but chances are at some point you'll have to use stuff you're not used to.
- This system plays to the strengths of the game, one of which is a high number of spells, most of which are unused in the current system.
- It's ok if some spells aren't as effective as others in general. In the current system, there's no need to ever choose weak spells. But in the proposed system, spells only need to be as good as other spells in their tier to be worthwhile, and that can change based on randomness.
- This could even be used on the utility spells such as shields and maybe even storm dash, making the experience varied: you may not have storm dash until tier 4.

What do you guys think?

Offline KDR_11k

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2012, 05:02:26 pm »
I always keep two main spells around, usually fireball and launch rock. One of them will always work.

Offline nobody

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 19
Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2012, 07:53:26 pm »
I mainly use 5 spells

2 long range projectiles. - 1 main one, and a back up for enemies that are immune. and i like one of these to be a rock type of spell so it goes through a bunch of enemies

1 short range attack - I uses the entropy whip. it does significantly more damage then the projectiles but has reduced range, so i use it for when enemies get in close to quickly kill them, plus this spell is also what I use to destroy background stuff

1 knockback spell. - I use the splashback. I dont think this needs to be upgraded at all. (does upgrading it reduce cooldown or increase knockback distance? I dont think so, and if that is the case there is literally no point to getting it past tier 1, so you dont need to worry about putting resources into it)

1 Teleportation spell - Reason for this should be fairly obvious, and it only has 1 tier so you dont worry abouy putting resources into it for upgrading.

With the above I have a nice variety of spells at my disposal, while only needing to focus on keeping 3 spells upgraded.