Author Topic: Getting players to use more spells.  (Read 10891 times)

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2012, 03:17:07 pm »
Most FPSs don't have THAT many weapons.  Sure, they have some different weapons, but not nearly as many as the number of spells we have in AVWW. So it's not a huge waste of resources if the player only sticks to one weapon.
Depends on the FPS, which is why I grabbed CoD.  Allow me to iterate (MW3).  Yes, I realize it's a Triple-A game but that's not intrinsic to the gameplay mechanics themselves.
10 Assault Rifles
6 Snipers
6 Shotguns
6 Pistols
6 SMGs
5 LMGs
4 Machine Pistols

For the standard 'shoot 'em' choices, that leaves you 43 options for your standard 'shoot 'em' choices.  They are nothing more than the difference between Forest Rage autocannon (LMG) vs. Miasma Whip (USAS-12).  Your 'attachment' changes are similar to enchants.  Faster fire, more cooldown, sights are range, etc.

That's 43 options that really only make minor adjustments to your play style.  Those are HUGE investments in resources, as each one has a different artistic component, reload animations, sighting, ranges, bullet travel delay, and other things.  For roughly simply allowing a player a different feel while they play.

Now, let's get into the specialty items... what we'd consider utility spells.
6 different launchers, each one having a different specialization.  They typically have particular uses (RPG-7 suiciders not withstanding) so they have limited ammos instead of having limited versatility.

6 different types of 'grenades'.  Toss and kills, silent kill, position control, or user-controlled position denial.  Again, limited in volume (particularly in multiplayer, which is the real CoD game these days, the SP is a tack-on) for balance reasons, of course.

And last but not least, 8 different tactical items that can do anything from block enemy vision to you to deflecting attacks away to respawn choice to Improved visibility.  Oh, yeah, a few of 'em status effect the opponent too (flash/stun).

THESE are limited in what you can carry, the heavy game changers.  In combination they are over-whelming (MP improvement possibility).  IE: Toss a smoke grenade on your buddy who set up a trophy system.  You can't get him off the target for a bit.

This is a HUGE volume of resources invested into the game.  Most of it is constantly usable (due to death/respawn).  One tactic didn't work, grab your other class with different setup. This, to me, is the equivalent of rotating my spell bar for a different build.  However, I pretty much start every game with the same class, and only adjust as gameplay (not restrictions) require me.

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Nevertheless, single player campaigns in FPS games try to get the player to vary his weapons as much as they can. This is why they slowly feed new weapons to the player rather than giving him access to all the weapons at once. [trim] Remember that trick from Half Life and a thousand other games? The whole point there is that you start using your more basic weapons again.
Comparing Half-Life and CoD single player is... an apples and oranges comparison.  CoD SP is basically a huge introduction so you can get a feel for the game before joining multiplayer and getting curbstomped.  Many (from the boards and surveys ~50%) of modern CoD players never even boot up the story mode for CoD.

Half-Life is built from the ground up as a scripted, hand-crafted single player experience where each level is balanced according to the tools they've given you in that specific scenario.

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There's another important point about FPSs and that's the fact that you have ammo that almost always varies by gun type (Deus Ex 2 being the notable exception). This ammo count limits how much you can use any particular weapon. It forces you to switch to different weapons to conserve ammo.
Or die.  We also have 'mana', which is basically an ammo counter for heavier cost spells.  You have to run away, 'reload', and come back.  Not very different then me running around a board collecting ammo packs, or grabbing someone else's gun that's very similar to mine that I just killed.  For specialty weapons I agree.  Not the standard shoot 'ems.

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So weapon variation is built into the basic mechanics of FPS games. When you run out of ammo for your machine gun, you have to switch to a gun or maybe even a knife, and the dynamic of the game changes.
That's usually due to bad planning, not enforcement.

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But what about multiplayer FPS modes? Other than ammo mechanics (which are baked into the very fabric of FPSs), you don't really see too much enforcement of variation there. For one thing, I think the assumption is that players have already tried all the weapons.
Not a good assumption, usually.  A lot of them look crappy from a stats perspective.

Now to the meaty differences.  Everything above was just how we have a very different outlook as to the application of these elements:
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In an FPS, you work in 3 dimensions. As such, the opportunity for different tactics, especially in PvP mode, is insane. Because there is no guarantee of a line of sight to your enemy,
Crates.

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you can have ambushes,
Bear Traps, wall-sliding attacks, detection reduction armor

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and you can approach the enemy from above unseen, or from a trench below, or from behind, or flush him out, or flank him.
In order: Floating Platforms, too difficult to discuss, triple-jump/storm dash, Rhino Charge/Rock Tossing/clinging Fetor, I agree it's impossible.

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You don't need the variation in weapons to force you to use different tactics.
I don't believe that's required here, either.  I believe a combination of enemy types and tactics, status effects and spell tweaks, and more interesting level design from the procedural components are a better place to focus on then heavily random restrictions.

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You could have the same weapon and constantly try different tactics, many of which could be entirely psychological. Then you see another player using a slightly different weapon with completely different tactics and you try to emulate that. But weapons are a small part of the picture here. Aside from explosive types, it's mostly just a function of point and shoot. It's really human ingenuity applied to the massive solution space that makes multiplayer battles refreshing.
Alright, Mario.  The classic, I'm a platformer, that's what I do.  He had *1* ability.  Jump.  That's it.  Sometimes you ate a fireflower and could shoot for a bit.  But well, you jumped, that's how you attacked.  Would it have been more interesting if every 5 levels or so you switched from jumping to sliding?  No, in most games we hold up as examples you eventually add sliding TO jumping.  Megaman's a good example of this.  Yet another combative exploration (within limits) platformer.  Yes, there were ammo limits on the abilities but they refilled pretty quickly, and you always had your starter weapons, and could always go back and reuse the specials (any of them) once you'd refilled Mega's manabar. 

The multiplayer aspect is not the only way to allow for gameplay variety and tactical choices you can make.  It's effective, don't get me wrong, but it's not the only way.

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The variability comes from things like your weapon types, the environment you have to traverse, and the enemy types.
...And the weapon types making a difference combined with the other two is where I'd like to see tactics and versatility and variety come from.

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In addition, AVWW doesn't even have the single-player FPS mechanics of ammo or gradually introduced weapons to drive people to use different spells.
This is one of the places I'd like to see improved, and have some ideas.  I just haven't figured out how best to present it yet as an idea for the developers, nor if it would even fit within their vision.

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And over the course of a long game of AVWW, sticking with the same spells is going to make the game boring.
I won't say it's helping.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2012, 03:18:06 pm »
The problem with making spells cheaper rather than more expensive is that it allows you to game the system. If I want to get to a T2 fireball, I can buy another spell and then get a discount on T2 fireball.

EDIT: Nope. This cost system based on what you have doesn't work. Any way you slice it, even if you raise the cost of spells you have, it creates opportunities to game the system. The only thing you can have is that the continent is given random price adjustments.

PRECISELY.  It gives me an ADVANTAGE.  Carrot, not stick.  Time investment now to make it easier later.  Right on the money!
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline khadgar

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2012, 03:18:51 pm »
Bluddy, I really don't like the idea of having arbitrary restrictions on what you can and cannot make. "Oops! It looks like you tried to craft a fireball, but you're not allowed. Sorry about that!" If you want to control what spells users craft, I think it's a far better solution to have it done via what they can find. If the ocean shallows are difficult to get to, you'll just make do without coral until you can get there. If all the areas that give ruby are too windy, fire is out... unless you REALLY REALLY want it, but why make that choice for the player? Maybe I do REALLY REALLY want fire magic, and I'm willing to go the distance to get it?

But this sorta ties in with things you've been talking in other threads and topics, about making wind harder to navigate, or all those things.

Wind Is Hard plus Random Zones equals some zones(resources) will be hard to get

Offline Bluddy

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2012, 03:37:50 pm »
Bluddy, I really don't like the idea of having arbitrary restrictions on what you can and cannot make. "Oops! It looks like you tried to craft a fireball, but you're not allowed. Sorry about that!" If you want to control what spells users craft, I think it's a far better solution to have it done via what they can find. If the ocean shallows are difficult to get to, you'll just make do without coral until you can get there. If all the areas that give ruby are too windy, fire is out... unless you REALLY REALLY want it, but why make that choice for the player? Maybe I do REALLY REALLY want fire magic, and I'm willing to go the distance to get it?

But this sorta ties in with things you've been talking in other threads and topics, about making wind harder to navigate, or all those things.

Wind Is Hard plus Random Zones equals some zones(resources) will be hard to get

Yes -- in general I definitely agree with that. I think random cost adjustment per continent could also work, but why not take advantage of the excellent randomization that you have with terrain already? It just seems like it should flow from that. But I'm not sure the wind mechanic does enough since your initial 'zone of control' is too big. Since resources can spawn in so many different tile types, you can craft most of the main spells just with the tiles that are initially devoid of storm. Also, how many tiles does a wind shelter uncover? I think if your zone of control was smaller and wind shelters only uncovered a few tiles at a time (which they may -- I'm not sure), then this built-in method could indeed work.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2012, 03:43:12 pm »
Some ideas I have that might encourage players to try different things instead of penalizing them into having to.

- At Tier 3, spawn *1* tower for an elemental price decrease, random element.  Of course some mission needs to be done to get the effect.
-- Instead of punishing players for reaching Tier 3, it can become a goal.
-- If (like me) they've been focusing on Earth and suddenly Water is Cheap, well, hm.  That's worth a look!
-- You still trade time for power, but it's a power you didn't expect to get.  I'm not penalized for ignoring the tower (or entropy for that matter), but now I have an option to increase my power in a different tree.
-- Sometimes you get lucky.  BONUS!

- Modify the seek resources spell to allow you to search for things for a single spell build instead of whatever's handy in the area.
-- This would allow someone to avoid the necessary farming for some spells that ARE hard to reach and make it so that you're not being forced between deciding on missions for main spell ingredients and necessary guardian scrolls and then adding in secondary spells as an additional pain point.
-- Yes, it can be gamed to just high-speed the primary spell as well.  So what?

- One I'd avoid: As has been mentioned in another thread, allow selectable characters to have an affinity towards a certain element.
-- You can keep using your primary spell but they'd have a strength to another choice.
-- CON: A major con.  A good Earth-o-mancer can be hard to find.  Lemmings become PCs, and that's counter to design.

- Allow for permanent NPC-influence in spell strength/costs
-- Currently the NPCs are primarily used for guardian scroll casting alone. 
-- I don't have a good way of implementation, but the city building components and variety as secondary 'grabs' during guardian scroll missions seem like they would be a good way to encourage variety.  Imagine looking at the guardian in the settlement and realizing after building that Chaos Well or whatever all entropy spells are now 50% off.  Woot!

- Increase weaknesses in different creatures across Environ
-- A lightning Esper should be weak to Earth, and vice versa.  Exploding Embers should hate water.  They currently don't.  I get no benefit from changing spells, I'm merely avoiding penalties.
-- This would also improve some of the mp-difficulties that I've faced, in that having multiple players improves having different choices on-hand, allowing for more effective team-gameplay.

- Allow for an outside force out of the player's control to influence spell strength for a bit, in a good way.
-- This could be anything from Dawn being good for light spells to the pirate ship's engines affecting a particular region oddly and boosting Water Spells.
-- Could take this even further.  Is there a reason Water Spells aren't stronger in their natural element, the shallows?  How about Earth in the groves, or Entropy in the Deeps?

You'll notice all of these ideas avoid penalties.  They're boosts.  They're encouragements.  They're ignorable if you don't want to play at 'the top of your game'... or if it's just too much to handle when you're starting out.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline khadgar

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2012, 03:59:04 pm »
Also, how many tiles does a wind shelter uncover? I think if your zone of control was smaller and wind shelters only uncovered a few tiles at a time (which they may -- I'm not sure), then this built-in method could indeed work.

Lesser wind shelter, = adjacent tiles only
greater wind shelter = some amount more than that

But keep in mind that you can't always get wind shelters where you need them to go. I ran into a block on my 3rd continent, where my starting non-windy area's only valid locations were in the deep, so I couldn't actually expand my safe radius. Wind shelter missions would need to function differently from the current mechanic if the radius was lowered substantially.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2012, 10:22:14 pm »
Going back to what was said eariler.

I think that introducing more elemental weaknesses would be great for encouraging spell variety, and also would make combat feel a bit more fluid, as now there are positive rewards in addition to negative penalties.
Yes, elemental weaknesses are implemented, but IMO, not widespread enough. For example, is there any reason that the explosion esper's are not weak to water? I'd be willing to try my tidal wave spell more often if "made of fire" enemies were weak to water.

Offline Misery

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2012, 10:46:49 pm »
Well.

I understood this topic right up until the FPS stuff.   Really hate that entire genre.

But I'll quote this at least:


Going back to what was said eariler.

I think that introducing more elemental weaknesses would be great for encouraging spell variety, and also would make combat feel a bit more fluid, as now there are positive rewards in addition to negative penalties.
Yes, elemental weaknesses are implemented, but IMO, not widespread enough. For example, is there any reason that the explosion esper's are not weak to water? I'd be willing to try my tidal wave spell more often if "made of fire" enemies were weak to water.


I agree to this.   More elemental weaknesses would be very helpful.    Particularly when dealing with really high HP foes, such as Sea Worms (omigod they take a billionty hits).   Not that I think the HP should be REDUCED..... it shouldnt.  Part of the challenge of dealing with foes like that IS the HP level.   But sticking elemental weaknesses onto enemies like that could be a very good thing, particularly as the player learns more and more about the game.   They can quickly figure out which enemies give them the most trouble, and look into getting spells of the color that enables them to defeat those foes quicker.

I do think it would add ALOT of value to the idea of using more than one color, and I DONT think it'd actually reduce the challenge level of the game;  it'd just enhance the choices you make, and keep combat that much more interesting (and satisfying!)

Definitely support this idea.   Is there a Mantis thing for this one?

Offline Bluddy

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2012, 10:53:51 pm »
I think to take advantage of this, you have to mix elemental weaknesses with incentives to use different range spells. So an enemy might be sensitive to an element, but only from close up -- they have a shield to deal with long-range attacks of that element. Or they can reflect elemental damage from far away (like skelebots) but not from close up.

Otherwise the solution is always to get a long range spell of each element.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2012, 12:19:14 am »
Otherwise the solution is always to get a long range spell of each element.
Yes, but a step in the right direction!  That will add the 'use more than 1/2 spells' thinking to the player, which gets us in the right direction.  Then we expand on it.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline omegajasam

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Re: Getting players to use more spells.
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2012, 07:26:57 am »
Going back to what was said eariler.

I think that introducing more elemental weaknesses would be great for encouraging spell variety, and also would make combat feel a bit more fluid, as now there are positive rewards in addition to negative penalties.
Yes, elemental weaknesses are implemented, but IMO, not widespread enough. For example, is there any reason that the explosion esper's are not weak to water? I'd be willing to try my tidal wave spell more often if "made of fire" enemies were weak to water.

Also, more effects from hitting them with their weakness/sterngth. A reduced/bigger explosion for example. Like the clock heads falling. Weaknesses/resitances.