General pacing question

[Penumbra]

Missions give 40 CP, 3 Tier stones and 2-6 resources. This is true for missions at all continent tier levels (with the exception of some raw gems being given instead of resources).

At Tier I, one mission is sufficient to create one or two Tier 2 spells. The players get five missions before raising the CP, which is 15 Tier orbs and roughly ten Tier 2 spells.

On later CP levels, it takes more and more resources to gain new spells, while missions give the same amount. This forces the player to venture out and find secret missions or guardian powers to gather the needed resources. This is an interesting change, and makes the later Tier spells a challenge. But there is a large incentive to just do a single mission at a new Tier for the first 3 orbs, and then do secret missions until you can create new spells. May not be totally optimal, but it is what I have found myself doing.

This gives the players a nice pyramid of skills, with a large number of low Tier spells, but just a few high Tier ones, but still having 15 of each Tier orb.  Most of these high level orbs go completely unused due to lack of resources, with the players just scared to do more missions because of CP.  At CP level 5, however, CP gains stop mattering entirely.  I routinely end up doing 20 or 30 missions at CP 5, just for fun and resources. This leaves me with more at-level spells than I know what to do with. The players get every spell.

What if the amount of Tier orbs and CP given by missions decreased as the CP level of the continent rises. At Tier 1, you still get the 3 orbs (or even more) and the 40 CP. Tier 2 may only give 30 progress. Tier 4 mission might only give 1 orb and 13.4 CP, letting the players complete 15 missions while not getting more than the total 15 Tier 4 orbs. Players could do more missions, which are fun! Maybe this could all be configurable like AIP over time is.

Tier 5 missions could also increase the CP. Maybe just by a small amount (maybe a huge amount - players should have already worried about creating their Tier 5 spells at CP level 4). Dungeons can already go way above Tier 5 monsters, maybe so could the continent. This would balance between players at a "fresh" Tier 4 and those who have completed two dozen missions and all the spells. The overlord isn't just going to sit there and watch. Could the players dig themselves in a hole? Maybe. Maybe they should be allowed to. It wouldn’t be inescapable like continent sinking was, because the amount of Tier 5 spells just keep increasing with resources.

This is probably a much larger change than there is time for by 1.0, but I believe (perhaps foolishly) that it would not be a large mechanical change.

AI War has a great difficulty curve across a single play-through, and it is something that did not just come about overnight  I remember the large push for an exciting end game. 

[x4000]

The tricky thing with what you suggest is that we don't really want to make the game take astronomically longer to complete.  And additionally, we're specifically angling to have players not use all 15 of their tier orbs at each tier when they are going to go for the overlord.  Having that many tier orbs allows them to over-level if they need to, but realistically you only need two or three tier 5 offensive spells and you're good to go on the overlord.  Everything else is just movement-oriented and so forth.

What I ultimately want to do is, post-1.0, work on ways to keep the player circling back to older continents and doing new things there even after the overlord is dead; thus giving more of a purpose to those other tier orbs beyond just over-leveling.

[keith.lamothe]

Could the players dig themselves in a hole? Maybe. Maybe they should be allowed to.

Having seen a lot of mechanics whereby this is possible come and go (there aren't really any left, that I can think of), I don't think it fits with the overall feel of the game.  I love to have stuff like that, and in other games players love it too, but not in this one   We'll see what expansions bring, though.  Hybrids or FS could never have worked as part of AIW 1.0 (or 2.0, or probably even TZR), for example.

[Penumbra]

I started this topic as "General Pacing Question" and it just kinda got away from me   

It's 5 missions per tier, 3 orbs and ~5 resources a mission. This stays constant for each tier. Higher tier spells take more resources. The mission pacing seems to be slow-fast-slow. I guess my question is "why"    And that's not even a real question.

Just ignore me.

[zebramatt]

I'm inclined to think that if there's any issue here it's that you have no reason to tackle the Overlord until you've collected every Tier 5 spell you can - which makes the end game on any given continent completely homogeneous. That seems counter-intuitive to me. Like, the game's presenting you with all these hard choices about what spells to focus on and when - and that's fun - and then you crack Tier 5 and suddenly that all falls away.

And then you kill the Overlord and go to a new continent. You figure this time you'll try a different path, focussing on a different set of spells in the early game and playing it in a new way... then you get to Tier 5 and all that goes away, and it's just the same as the last time you were at Tier 5 (with some differences around the edges).

That just feels bad to me. And I think the easiest solution Penumbra already mentioned: just make the continent enemy tier extend beyond Tier 5. Then you could expand your spell base indefinitely - but doing so means you're also making the enemies harder. And the Overlord should be included in that. Obviously you don't want the Overlord starting with stats below a certain point; but after you've got to a stage where the game thinks you should be up for tackling him (i.e. Tier 5) any increase in your skills above that by a certain margin should cause him to get tougher.

But this close to v1.0 does it really need sorting? Probably not. But once someone's up to Tier 5 (which will happen on release day for some, I'm sure) then is it already too late to fix for them in a subsequent patch? Not sure. I'd get over it, so perhaps it's fine!

[Terraziel]

I'm inclined to think that if there's any issue here it's that you have no reason to tackle the Overlord until you've collected every Tier 5 spell you can - which makes the end game on any given continent completely homogeneous.

I think my counter point would be that the game gives you no reason NOT to tackle the overlord once you have a couple of spells at tier 5 (which only requires continent tier 4).

In fact I'd argue that the game makes improving spells you clearly aren't going to use to tier 5 utterly pointless, as you will lose them the moment you change continent, improving more than the spells that have managed to get you to that point is just you choosing to waste your own time.

Overall I'd say if people feel that the game becomes homogeneous at tier 5 then they should stop playing tier 5 like that and accept that it is their choices making it homogeneous.

I sort of equate levelling up all the spells with exploring all the rooms in all the buildings, sure you can do this, but why would you? At best the game just needs to tell people that is a bad idea.

[Underfot]

Personally, I start thinking of taking the overlord on as soon as I have one tier 5 spell; I'm glad we have that kind of flexibility.  However, post-1.0, I think it's important that the overlord/lieutenants DO something to make you want to take them on.  Blocking off regions with vortex pylons, abducting survivors, or launching waves at your settlement.  These things could intensify if you hit tier 5, giving you some real motivation.

[zebramatt]

Terraziel, you make a fine point, sir. I suppose the only thing I might counter with is that it's curiosity that incentivises accumulating all the spells - and us humans have that in droves. I might be inclined to unlock every available spell simply to try them out, which isn't terrible by any means, but I'd rather the game keep my choices limited so they feel like they matter. If this were a sandbox game, however, I'd probably feel completely differently about it! 

Underfot: I entirely agree with that.

[Penumbra]

I don't try to get every spell, but by the time I can make my 4 go to spells that I use every time, I have enough extra resources to get a bunch of them.

In the beginning, everything is Tier 1, and you have some time. 5 missions to prepare for Tier 2, and all your spells are current.  Once you get to Tiers 2-4, you have to be careful. Don't let the CP raise faster than you spells. It's a nice little arms race, and one that is possible to lose. You could totally screw up by only doing missions that give you guardian powers till the CP goes past where you can handle it. Then, you can't get any resources.

This bit of stress is what gives the game its hard choices. Having to pick the correct 5 missions to do at each tier. Until you get to 5, then it just doesn't matter. You could totally win at CP 4, but there is little incentive to.

[Terraziel]

In the beginning, everything is Tier 1, and you have some time. 5 missions to prepare for Tier 2, and all your spells are current.  Once you get to Tiers 2-4, you have to be careful. Don't let the CP raise faster than you spells. It's a nice little arms race, and one that is possible to lose. You could totally screw up by only doing missions that give you guardian powers till the CP goes past where you can handle it. Then, you can't get any resources.

This bit of stress is what gives the game its hard choices. Having to pick the correct 5 missions to do at each tier. Until you get to 5, then it just doesn't matter. You could totally win at CP 4, but there is little incentive to.

I think the problem with that is that it doesn't take secret missions in to account, I might only have 5 world map missions per tier but i have an infinite amount of secret missions. Any tension is of your own creation.

[Penumbra]

I think the problem with that is that it doesn't take secret missions in to account, I might only have 5 world map missions per tier but i have an infinite amount of secret missions. Any tension is of your own creation.

True. But, there is a reason to not do missions and favor the secret ones in CP 1-3. Once you get your first Tier 5 spell in CP 4, you're done. Just do missions. It's faster to cycle the missions than to hunt for secret ones. They give more and have no penalties.

[KDR_11k]

More important for me is to kill all the LTs before the continent hits T5.

[Magus-k]

Actually, why allow for spell orbs past CP level 4.  When CP hits 5, stop giving orbs.  You can still grind missions for  resources but, as has been pointed out, the idea was to make choices for spell use.  You'll still have 15 Tier 5 orbs to spend and you've seen how the spells act/react.  Honestly, you choose 3 spells to max based on taste and effectiveness, grind them to max, pick up various movement spells and enchants as you run through the game, and attack the lieutenants at level 4 and Overlord at level 5.

Since all spells drop to tier one on the next continent, it seems pointless pre 1.0 to spend too long trying to grind all spells to max.   

[Martyn van Buren]

I dunno, I think the flexibility is good. Supposing you suck and you just can't do the overlord at tier five? Or you love entropy spells and then the overlord turns out to have a whopping resistance to them? I feel like unlimited tier five orbs are the equivalent of being able to go out and slaughter trash mobs for exp in and rpg; a good player shouldn't have to but it gives you an out from an otherwise bad situation.

Very glad to hear about plans for cycling back to previous continents, that sounds cool.

[Magus-k]

I dunno, I think the flexibility is good. Supposing you suck and you just can't do the overlord at tier five? Or you love entropy spells and then the overlord turns out to have a whopping resistance to them? I feel like unlimited tier five orbs are the equivalent of being able to go out and slaughter trash mobs for exp in and rpg; a good player shouldn't have to but it gives you an out from an otherwise bad situation.

As you say, flexibility is good.  Choosing two or 3 spells from DIFFERENT schools is better than loving one school above all else.  Still, let's consider your points. 

If you suck at the overlord at tier 5, why is there a problem?  Do I lower the difficulty at the idol or try again?   Do I work on upgrades for my character, more health or more stabby.  Grinding stones or enchantments doesn't depend on more higher tier spells or on Tier orbs to acquire.

As far as liking entropy, that does bring up a suggestion that some of the Anonymous Gravestones change to clues to the resistances of the overlord before you meet him to prevent this kinda problem.  May be reveal a weakness or a resistance with each lieutenant killed to encourage their priority first.

Heck as for reasons to come back, maybe new missions on old continents DO have extra tier 5 orbs for the new continent, add them to the stash.  That would give some reason to revist old haunts.