Author Topic: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha  (Read 7453 times)

Offline x4000

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Original: http://christophermpark.blogspot.com/2011/03/first-public-version-of-valley-without.html

It pains me to say that we're delaying the first public version, but Keith and I spent a good while talking about it today, and we agree it's for the best.  We've decided to scrap the idea of a public alpha, and instead are going to start with a public beta.

In practical terms, what does that mean?  It means that instead of having a version for preorder/demo in 3-4 weeks, our timetable is shifted to "we don't know."  It might be May or June, or it might be even further along.  We don't have a crystal ball, but things are proceeding well so far, and we'll know when we see it.  In the meantime we'll keep you as informed as possible about both our progress and plans.

The Obvious Question: Is The Project Behind Schedule?
Not in so many words, no.  It's simply lopsided.  We have an awesome engine at this point, but not a lot of actual game so far.  We've been focusing on the technical aspects, and the construction of this infinite world itself, and multiplayer, and the basic systems for gameplay such as crafting and item use and combat.  These were the bits we were most unsure about, and the bits that underlie everything else.

In many respects, we're a lot further along than I'd expected to be at this point.  It's also high quality work: the worldbuilding code that is there is practically final, and we just need a lot more layers on top to really make a truly varied world; the parts of combat implemented so far are also really solid, and work in multiplayer, and most importantly are fun.

But that's not an entire game yet.  To put it bluntly, what we have at the moment is this fairly repetitive world that is nevertheless infinite, and which has very repetitive gameplay due to simple lack of content.  Skelebots chase you, and you fire spells at them, and that's about it.  This tiny scrap of gameplay is fun, but most people would wear it out after 20 minutes  or so

Why Didn't We Start With The Gameplay?
A few people have asked why we didn't start with the gameplay first, as  they've heard game designers should.  The answer is that we did -- in  terms of what we designed.  In terms of what actually gets implemented first, that differs from project to project, even in AAA games.   In order for us to prove out interesting gameplay for this specific  game, we had to prove we were capable of making an interesting, dynamic  world to house it.  So that's what we've done.

We also had to prove out that we -- I -- could do the art in a way that looked good, and that was reasonable in the amount of time it would take.  I've done the art for some space games so far -- Light of the Spire and AI War 5.0, mostly -- but doing all the art for a game of this sort was a new challenge that took a lot of figuring out.  Until we had that sorted, we couldn't be sure we could really make this game, given our very tight budget and staff constraints.  And I think that's been successfully demonstrated at this point, as well.

We also had to implement a whole new networking model -- this one fell entirely to Keith, to my great fortune -- and we weren't sure we could do that in any reasonable amount of time.  Or what sort of refactoring it would take if we waited until later.  So we hit that up early, too, and it's working quite well if not fully optimized (aka, no smoothing or prediction).

When starting out with a brand-new project, especially a large one, you want to start with the bits that are worrying you.  The bits you aren't sure you can pull off.  If you can reassure yourself that those bits are feasible, then you can proceed with confidence on the entire rest of the project.  If you leave those uncertain bits until the last, you might be in for a nasty surprise, and the whole project might fall apart.  As of a few days ago, we've now hit all the big points of uncertainty -- lighting was the last of the brand-new things that we weren't sure about.

All Projects Start Small, Then Accelerate
The description of the gameplay two sections back might sound lame, but at one point AI War was just a game with fighters, light starships, and engineers.  I guarantee you every other game started out the same way.  At some point Chrono Trigger must have been just some empty-ish fields and a couple of repetitive  battles with one or two playable characters.  Forget all that story stuff, time travel, variety, and interesting locales.

I remember screenshots from what turned into Ocarina of Time when it was for the Nintendo "Ultra 64," and all it involved was Link fighting a single Stalfos.  They were soooo excited about the revolutionary new "Z targeting" system they'd invented, though they didn't call it that yet.

And they were right!  Boy was that revolutionary.  They made some amazing engine strides, and were able to do something that no game had done before.  The entire game rest of the game was designed and built around what that one mechanic -- everything from camera angles to boss fights.

But it wasn't a game yet, or at least not a very fun one.  This is more or less where AVWW is at these days.  We have a working prototype in hand, it's all sorts of unprecedented, and we're super excited about it.  But this is the game-lifecycle stage of videos and screenshots for a reason, when it comes to larger companies.

Why Were We Promising A Public Alpha, Then?
This was my error.  See, we've been doing AI War expansions and engine upgrades for the last 9 months.  The last full game we did was Tidalis, and puzzle games are necessarily smaller in scope than most other kinds of games.  The last time I was this early in to a project the size of AVWW was about two years ago, with AI War's alpha versions.  Consistently, what I had at that stage was an overgrown prototype.  I should have remembered this!

But we've been doing all these expansions lately, and that was fresher in my mind.  When you do an expansion, a funny thing happens: you can do one day of work, make a new ship or something, and then put that out as a public beta on preorder/demo.  This is no problem, because the fans already have this huge game to play with, and they are happy to get that 1 extra ship added in and see what it does.  Then every day as we do more work, we release more betas quickly, and everyone stays happy.  Before you know it, a few months have passed, you're doing balance testing and polish, and you release.  Success!

I think that this led me down the wrong path, paired with thinking about how Minecraft spent so long in alpha (and I think I read it went into alpha after only one week of development, if I'm not mistaken).  Minecraft is another one of those special cases: it has an enormous creative component, so players could have fun in the sandbox of the game even when all you were doing is digging up dirt and rearranging it into houses or whatever other patterns.  Minecraft could start out extremely primitive in its first versions because of its very nature, but you can't build anything out of skelebot corpses; there has to be more of a game here right from the start.  It's not better or worse, it's just a different kind of game.

Why Not Release A Public Alpha For Those Who Really Want It?
We were criticized for releasing our first footage and screens of AVWW too early, in too raw a state, and I'm still on the fence about whether that criticism was entirely correct.  Some of our fans were really salivating for anything we could show them, and in the end it turned out we got some really useful feedback that helped us to improve our graphics in a way I might not have thought to on my own.

Regardless, I'm increasingly coming to feel that it would be a colossal, perhaps unrecoverable mistake to release any playable build of the game "too early," whatever that subjectively means.  The obvious reason is that the press, and people with a passing interest in the game, might download it and not like it in an early, unpolished state.  But even when it comes to the fans who are most excited about the game, there's this problem: an alpha could never live up to their expectations.

The press would actually probably be more forgiving, because they at least are used to seeing early builds of game software -- they know how the hotdog is made, so to speak.  But when it comes to the hardcore fans, they want what we've been promising -- but it isn't done!  They want settlements and to see a big interesting world that you can explore around in, and they want NPCs that they care about, and intriguing bits of story, and goals that actually matter.  They want to be able to affect the world in ways that are lasting.

So... should we hand them a game with a few enemies, basic sketches of interiors and exteriors, no real overarching goals, and no memory-of-deeds system?  That's insanity.  Those fans that have been around us a long time, and have seen us develop games before, know the process and would probably give us the benefit of the doubt that we'd make a good game.  In their view, we've done it before.  But the excitement would be gone.  It wouldn't have done them or us any service.

So Is The Project On Schedule Or Not?
Oh, yes, it's very much on schedule.  Our goal is 1.0 in October, and that seems imminently hittable.  The engine is vastly further along than I thought it would be at this time, and we're finally getting into the vertical development phase of the game in several areas.  We have all the basics of the explore/craft/combat trio down, and those are fun and simple.  We even have the very basics of NPCs.

What we need before we start showing this around in a playable format, though:

1. A lot more content of all sorts.  We've already been planning that for the next 3-4 weeks, and those plans haven't changed.

2. For the game to set dynamic goals that the player actually cares about, in terms of them being able to help out other NPCs, or find the lairs of bad guys and kill them, or whatever.  We don't presently have this at all, and there's no way we cold do this in 3-4 weeks on top of #1.

3. For the game to remember past events in a meaningful way, so that the whole benefit of the perma-death system becomes clear.  This in turn feeds back into #2, and there's a cycle of complexity here that we need to sort through.  The engine is ready and waiting for this, as is most of the design, but we have to actually put this in place.

4. Ways that the players can strategically affect their world.  As of today we have the basics of the wind shelter system, which is a great stride forward, but that isn't enough (and it isn't even fully finished yet).  What we really need are settlements, as well as the more complex interactions with NPCs that are related to #2 and #3.  And that also requires more crafting and other forms of content from #1, to really make it so that the player has enough choices for there to be any strategy to it.  See how this all interrelates?

5. More ways for the game to set up obstacles for you, that you can then overcome.  Even simple things like locked doors provide a surprising amount of  interest, because those represent something you can't do until you solve whatever puzzle is associated with the door (find the key, or the lever, or whatever).  That's a superficial example, but a lot of this also comes back to having notable arch-foes and the hopes of characters that you can work toward solving... again, speaking to #2  and somewhat #4.

When all of those things are in place, what we will have is a "broadly feature complete" version of the game.  In other words, all the major points of horizontal development will be done.  We'll still have loads of work to do in terms of adding yet more content and fun stuff to do, plus plenty of polish, and I'm sure other subsystems and points of interest will come up if there's time.  But when we hit those milestones, that will be a game that is varied and interesting for at least a few hours, if not far more.

That's when we'll start needing player feedback and content.  Right now the code changes enough that we don't really want custom content that will all just have to be changed, anyway.  That stuff needs to stabilize before we invite in a ton of people.  If I was a player giving feedback on this current version of the game, my feedback would be summarized by the above blog post.  Those are the largest "problems" with the game, and they all are simply factors of it not being done yet, like with the Stalfos battle in the Zelda prototype.

Players can't give us meaningful feedback until we actually have things a bit further along, I'm realizing.  Otherwise the incompleteness of the current builds masks everything and adds way too much uncertainty.  That's a new thought for me.

Just Sum It Up, Please: How Is The Project Going?
It's actually going really, really well.  The engine works and is in excellent form, and we've got the beginnings of content development going on.  What's there is cool and fun, but it's not yet nearly enough for anyone to really have a good time with it yet.

It's going to be a while yet before we hit that critical mass.  There's always a tipping point when a game goes from "promising prototype" to "this is an non-final build of a really fun game, and it's already fun."  We'd be stupid to release something that wasn't in the second category; I don't know how the press would react, but I know our biggest fans would be really let down.

What Comes Next?
It's quick for me to do textual posts, and to some extent screenshots or at least sprite samples, and I'm going to try to do more progress reports along those lines.  Videos are vastly slower, and are something I don't think I'm going to try doing any more regularly than biweekly.  Erik, our PR guy, may start doing some videos before too long, to take some of that burden off me.

In terms of when we will hit public beta, the answer is that we don't know.  It's really up in the air.  I would be really surprised if it is in May, honestly, but you never know.  I also would be really surprised if it is in August or after.  My best guess is maybe sometime in June, but that's too far out to really have any degree of accuracy.  We'll know we're ready for beta when we see it; it will have to meet all the criteria on my list above, and then I'll be happy.  Right now we're just chipping away everything that doesn't look like an elephant.

I can't wait for folks to be able to see this game, but we do have to be sensible about these things.  If it makes anyone feel any better, I've been on the anxious-player side of things my whole life.  We're telling you now because we didn't want to string you along with "oh, it will be next month" every month.  As a player, I always found that supremely annoying.  I never quite understood the dynamics of what the developer was going through until lately.  Live and learn!
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2011, 11:12:35 pm »
I don't mind. I would rather play-test something decent rather than something with huge, gaping holes and bugs in it, even if I have to wait longer.

Besides, isn't a public alpha a sort of contradiction of terms? I thought part of the whole idea of an alpha version was it meant that the devs were not yet comfortable with public playtesting and bug-reporting yet.

If you want to give me the engine and some documentation, I would be willing to "playtest" it by ensuring the API calls do what they are supposed to do, but that is less of a "game" and more "unit testing".  ;)

And yea, the whole development cycle of:
  • brainstorming
  • nailing down a good concept
  • basic concept art to help establish "look and feel"
  • gathering explicit requirements needed to implement concept concept (which includes getting overall software architecture of the engine down)
  • making engine that can support the concept
  • getting the specific concept/implementation down with a decent UI and with most of the art down (at this step, it should near beta worthy)
  • getting all of the program to a fully "polished" state
  • getting all supplementary stuff (promotional art, manuals, etc) done and ready
makes good sense, even though that means we have to wait longer to get to the "beta worthy" steps.

I wish more companies would be willing to get their concept and engine down solid before working on their specific implementation/game, otherwise you get this jumbled messes of engines that mixes implementation, instances, and API all together in convoluted ways.

So, take your time. I want you to put your best effort into "getting it right", even if it means we have to wait longer.  :)

Keep up the good work.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 08:57:40 am by techsy730 »

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 11:31:01 pm »
No complaints about waiting for a playable version here. I'm reminded of another indie developer, Unknown Worlds, and the long wait for Natural Selection 2. They released an alpha that was practically unplayable, then decided a few versions later to arbitrarily upgrade it to beta more as a publicity stunt to drum up more pre-orders rather than because it was actually at the stage of what one would traditionally call beta. Even now, there are some glaring bugs left that prevent it from being played with realistic team sizes and for a realistic game length, although at least each version gets closer and closer to the goal. They had some financial concerns that forced them into some of these choices, so I don't want to demean them for it, and I still feel like their game will be fantastic once it gets to be fully playable. But my point is that they've traded away a lot of goodwill by releasing builds that were arguably 'too alpha' for public consumption. So no complaints about not wanting to show off something that doesn't have all the pretty lights turned on yet.

And once you do release, you have people constantly hanging off your back asking when the next update is going to come, and when you're going to fix bugs X, Y, and Z. (Not that I'm never guilty of that :-[) Suddenly your development cycle comes under scrutiny from everyone and they're all joggling your elbow while you're trying to work. Sometimes it's better to keep it under your hat until you're really ready to deal with all that.

And I've still got like 30 unplayed games left from the Steam holiday sale, so I'm not desperate for something new yet.  ;)

Offline Otagan

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2011, 12:27:22 am »
You continue to have my unyielding support, gentlemen.  Keep at it and let me know as soon as I can lob my wallet your way.  Again.
...

Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2011, 01:55:00 am »
Honestly, this is the better choice route.  While your videos have been showing off great improvement, keeping your (now former) time scale in mind, I figured you were either:

a.  do some crazy content development, yet have bugs and gaps,
b.  not have enough. 

Either of these felt unfavorable to me as it would mean the alpha would be subpar and really, I could use some games to keep me excited!  To have something to look forward to ;)

Sticking with a Public beta as you said is better.  (I have an insane amount of games I can play from Steam, you don't need to add to it, just yet :P) So as ever, keep up the awesome work, this decision is more than likely for the best :)

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Offline cupogoodness

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 03:54:17 am »
So, take your time. I want you to put your best effort into "getting it right", even if it means we have to wait longer.  :)

Keep up the good work.

no complaints about not wanting to show off something that doesn't have all the pretty lights turned on yet.

You continue to have my unyielding support, gentlemen.  Keep at it and let me know as soon as I can lob my wallet your way.  Again.

So as ever, keep up the awesome work, this decision is more than likely for the best :)

I'm currently working on the release for this to share with our press and professional contacts, as well as the rest of the masses who've shown interest. I only hope they're half as awesome and understanding in response. Cheers!

*Raises a drink to all these supportive forum replies*

- Erik



« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 03:56:39 am by cupogoodness »

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 06:47:15 am »
Sounds good :)

I will still get the pre order even if its a bit later then you guys anticipated, and it is a sensible decision to wait for public testing until there actually is some content in it :)

The progession vids is fun to watch, it has come a long way in a short time, keep up the good work ;P
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Offline Nice Save

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 07:20:12 am »
I understand and support this completely. But...

This post showed up on my RSS feed as "First Public Version of A Valley..."

Maybe not a hope you want to be raising?

Offline cupogoodness

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2011, 08:32:17 am »
I understand and support this completely. But...

This post showed up on my RSS feed as "First Public Version of A Valley..."

Damn you, ill-placed ellipsis!

Offline x4000

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2011, 10:44:36 am »
Yikes, yeah, that was not intended to be the shortened message!  Sorry about that.

Meanwhile, thanks for the support and kind words, all.  Folks here had been the ones I had most been worried about offending with changing around the plans in this way, but glad to hear the reasoning makes sense from all angles, evidently.
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Offline Flatfingers

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2011, 12:03:13 pm »
I can't argue with the wisdom of this choice.

It's a little disappointing to me personally as I love design, and by the time beta rolls around all the opportunities to contribute in some meaningful way will be gone. By beta it's mostly just tweaking implementation -- not unimportant, but not whole-game-enhancing, either.

On the other hand, from what I've seen of today's gamers, a preference for design and a willingness and ability to be objective, to remain focused on helping the developer achieve his vision for the game (instead of trying to impose one's own beliefs of "how it should be done"), is pretty darn rare. I agree; the vast majority of people allowed to see the alpha build of a highly "worldy" game like AVWW would only see what's there, and would complain accordingly. They wouldn't see the systems not fleshed out yet, and their judgments would be much more critical than if they were looking at a beta build. That's just how it is.

So, albeit reluctantly, here's another voice in agreement with the decision to wait for beta before showing a public build of AVWW. For this particular kind of game, that's probably going to wind up being a wise decision.

Offline x4000

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2011, 12:11:42 pm »
Bear in mind we will still be talking about the game, both on these forums and in the blogs, etc.  So there are certainly opportunities to help with design at least in a verbal sense.  Which isn't what you're describing, I know, but it is apparent to me that players have already had a pretty surprising influence on the art of the game, and that's what has mainly been visible thus far.  Actually the gameplay itself to some extent, when it comes to the targeting system that is in place but that we hadn't been planning on.  But that's pretty arms-length.

Something I'm not really broadcasting very loudly, but which Keith and I have talked about, is that we might do a private alpha at some point with a few people from the forums.  Just folks that are really clear what they're getting into, and have the same sort of goals as you describe, rather than folks who are excited about the game-as-it-will-be and can't wait any longer to get that game-that-does-not-yet-exist.

That will be really tough though, because I hate saying no to people who are excited, and I also don't want to get into any appearance of favoritism or anything, which can turn ugly.  So we might not do that at all, I don't know.  But for folks who would have an interest in doing that kind of alpha testing that Flatfingers is describing, at some potential possible point in the next few months, feel free to shoot me an email or a PM.  I'll at least keep your note on file, and if we hit the point where we need some folks down the line -- which we may not -- I'll contact at least a few of the people that write me.

I'm wary of saying even that noncommital bit above, at risk of offending anyone that might still get the wrong idea and be offended if we don't offer them a private alpha, so that keeps the likelihood that we'll do a private alpha at all fairly low.  But it doesn't hurt to send me your info, so I'll know who is at least interested in that sort of thing when it comes time. :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2011, 12:14:07 pm »
Oh, and -- worst case, there is always post-1.0.  We plan to do free DLC like we do for AI War, and also expansions if there is actually interest from players.  As anyone can tell you, despite that AI War had a completely closed alpha with just three people I knew personally, and a tiny beta of about 16 people I also knew personally, there was tons of opportunity to affect the design of the game post-1.0 in the (so far) two years since it came out. 

I see AVWW as following the same sort of lifecycle track as AI War, assuming that players are at least as receptive to AVWW as they were AI War.  So even beta doesn't mean "the end of all the design choices," though it will mean the end of the bulk of the pre-1.0 ones.
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2011, 01:06:45 pm »
That will be really tough though, because I hate saying no to people who are excited, and I also don't want to get into any appearance of favoritism or anything, which can turn ugly.

Clearly the only fair way to select alpha testers is an original Star Trek style duel to the death. Be sure to cue up appropriate music and get some foam rubber rocks. ;) Although I've done enough testing in my days to realize that, at least when done correctly, it's not much fun at all. So it may be a dubious honor to win that duel. Not that it's stopped me yet from going on bug hunting missions in AI War. I see them and it's like I'm hardwired to go report them. It's more rewarding with Arcen though, since the bugs actually get fixed. With most other developers, it seems like bug reports get filed away on a server in the basement which is then disconnected from the network and locked up to be forgotten.

Offline x4000

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Re: First Public Version of A Valley Without Wind To Be Beta, Not Alpha
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2011, 01:23:12 pm »
Yeah, I've been in betas for other companies that were like that, too.  But you're absolutely right, it is a dubious pleasure for most folks to be in an alpha/beta of that sort, which is what many people who try to get into an alpha/beta don't seem to understand.  I think the last one I was in, I was maybe 14 years old, and after that I'd had enough of other people's betas. ;)
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