Author Topic: First impressions  (Read 1738 times)

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
First impressions
« on: November 07, 2011, 02:18:54 pm »
I just barely started messing with AVWW, mainly because I've been amazingly short on time.  That and my basement flooded.  But I've been playing around a little so I wanted to mention my first impressions in no particular order.  Note that I haven't been keeping up much with threads here so I'll probably repeat some comments others have made, and I'm only level 3 or 4 at the moment.

* The elemental resistance update was excellent.  I played a little before, and after.  I find spell variety much more useful and fun now.

* Maybe I haven't figured it out, but the most annoying thing is going back out from zones should be a fairly easy process, and it feels odd the way warp potions work.  I find I most often want to back out from a building, or back out to the overhead map and it seems the best I can do with potions is go to the room right before those locations and back out manually.  For buildings, it really is very much like how City of Heroes was before you could auto-exit a mission once you finished it.  That one change would get me to go in to more buildings.  As is, they are just more trouble than they are worth.

* If I could recommend one thing to improve your tooltips, it would multi-color.  It works very well in WC3, AI Wars, and it would really help in AVWW.  I'm guessing you have it planned already.

* I've been finding the skeletons at least (and to some extent whatever the ice age surface walker guys are) move awfully fast.  They die in one hit, but I think I would prefer if they took more hits but moved slower.  As is, they just fly past in practically an eye blink.  They just aren't a very satisfying enemy to face.  (And this is in an equal levels zone, so no speed boost for being in a high level zone).

* The bouncing ice guys are no threat at all.  Shouldn't they at least try and aim for me a little?  Even if they only corrected to hit me on each bounce, that'd be better.

* Wow, non-boss damage is low.  I basically could care less about the damage of anything besides a (mini) boss.  I just ignore them completely.  You'd have to quadruple the damage before I'd really notice it.  Haven't fought an actual boss yet, so can't comment on them.

* I really really want to see more utility stuff like Ride the Lightning.  Dashes, Screw Attacks, Slides, Ariel Dashes, Vertical Dropping Attacks, Corner Jumps, etc.

* The 1-10 hot key setup is pretty outdated.  I realize it is pretty easy to understand for new players, but if the hotkey buttons showed up on our bars to start with, you could make them anything and it would be great.  It seems especially silly to have mouse buttons one and two assigned to the same abilities as 1 and 2, the two easiest numbers to press.  I'd break up the hotkey bar as follows:
[LMB][RMB] _ [1][2][3][4] _ [Q][W][E][R]
That's still 10 abilities, but bunched for much easier use.  I haven't found a use for W (up) outside of the overhead map so that should work.  I'd put a small visual spacing in for the underscores.  It should be understandable to anyone very quickly if you have the letters displayed in the bottom left corner of each circle.  If nothing else, give us an option to go to "Grid Keys" for this layout.  It is popular enough in gaming to be a reasonable option.

* The option that moves your view with the mouse is excellent, but shouldn't it turn off when I option the ESC menu?  That just feels awkward.

* I'm still trying to decide if I like SPACE for jump.  I actually think I really want SPACE to interact (instead of E).  But that really only leaves W for jump, and that messes with the hotkeys I want.

* I'm assuming the tutorial mission will help this issue, but I really feel a total lack of direction.  I'm wondering around for no real reason.  I'm currently trying to "clear" a square of the map because I seem to recall somebody in the intial tower mentioned something like that, but I don't even know what "clearing" a map square would involve.  I assume killing all the boss, but all I've found so far is a ton of mini-bosses.  Like 15+ rooms worth.  Again, I'm guessing the tutorial mission will help a lot with this issue of direction.

Keep up the good work guys!

Offline c4sc4

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 253
Re: First impressions
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2011, 03:21:30 pm »
* Maybe I haven't figured it out, but the most annoying thing is going back out from zones should be a fairly easy process, and it feels odd the way warp potions work.  I find I most often want to back out from a building, or back out to the overhead map and it seems the best I can do with potions is go to the room right before those locations and back out manually.  For buildings, it really is very much like how City of Heroes was before you could auto-exit a mission once you finished it.  That one change would get me to go in to more buildings.  As is, they are just more trouble than they are worth.

Well if you pres the 'm' ',' and '.' keys, you get a different map. One of those will display the region map ( , I believe) which contains all of the surface chunks. If you are in a building and open the region map, you can warp to any of those chunks and if you warp to the chunk that leads to the world map, it places you right next to the exit.


As for the key bindings, I believe 'W' 'E' and 'R' already have keybindings (or at least in mine they do but I'm not using the defaults) so that might be akward to change. Q might even be keybound but I may be confusing it with some other game.

Also, the MMB corresponds to the third spell on the hotbar and if you mouse has more  mouse buttons then they should correspond with the 4th and 5th and so on. Don't know if you know this already or not, it may be helpful to you.


Also, you don't like space for jump, that is like one of the most common keybindings for jump in games.

Also, as for the icicle leapers (the bouncing ice guys), they aren't suppose to really be a threat, that was why they were added I believe.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: First impressions
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2011, 03:27:05 pm »
Thanks for taking the time to note down your thoughts!  A few responses:

1. Warp potions also work on the region map.  Hit period instead of comma when you are in a building, then click the surface (or anywhere else) and then go directly where you want.  No, you can't go directly out to the world map using this method, but it's a pretty minor thing to get there.  And anywhere within a region you can easily get back to anywhere else in that region that you've previously created.

2. We definitely want to do multi-color tooltips, but the way that would work here is a bit more complex than what is happening in AI War, and we have some code extension that we have to make before that can really happen.  But I very much want it, too.

3. It's an interesting point about the skelebots, I'll keep that in mind.  I need to do some more enemies before the skelebots can really be moved to their final destination anyhow, which is the junkyards.

4. The icicle leapers are the easiest of the easy enemies in a lot of respects.  Think of them like the wall-crawlers in Metroid, or Goombas in Mario.  Every enemy isn't designed to give a challenge, some just the opposite. ;)  But I do plan on having "elite" versions of a lot of the enemy types later, with added things like chasing for the leapers for instance.

5. What difficulty level are you playing on?  The default is meant to be fairly tame so that people aren't getting their butts handed to them constantly.  I tend to play on Master Hero and play about 4 region levels up, which is what is generally expected for a really solid player; if you're playing at like-level regions, that again is saying that you want things to be kind of moderately easy, just kind of the average experience.  If you've got hardcore gamer Metroidvania skills, you'll need to play up in region levels and/or increase the action difficulty level.  The defaults for the game aren't meant to be prohibitively difficult, which is more or less what it sounds like you're experiencing.

6. Lots more planned like ride the lightning, don't worry.

7. The 1-10 hot key setup is yours to change as you will, but that's the default we're going for because -- as you said -- it's easier for new players to understand.  I'm not particularly open to changing that default because I feel it would harm new player adoption, but that's precisely why we give such crazy flexible keymapping options.  Same deal with space for jump.  That is THE jump key as far as most PC gamers are concerned, and there's no way I'd change that here, but you're free to do absolutely whatever you like best.  If folks even want to share their inputbindindings.dat files with alternate key bindings setups, that's something that might be interesting for players to share with likeminded players.

8. For the option that moves your mouse needing to turn off when the escape menu is up, that sounds like a good one for mantis.

9. In terms of lack of direction, if you're talking about just at the start, then sure that was the way.  You might give the intro mission a go and see what you think after that.  However, in general this is kind of self-directed at the moment as with AI War.  We have some plans on things that would be shorter-term goals to pursue, but in terms of the larger goals there are overlords out there and you need to find them, kill them, and otherwise level up.  And if you want to get better stuff, that's certainly giving you some short-term goals in terms of places to go to get new things.

10. There's no way to "clear" a region on the world map, just FYI.  A lot of the regions themselves are infinite in size when you consider their caves.  You can fully explore the surface and buildings and such, but we really don't even encourage that (kind of like taking every planet in AI War -- possible, but not really the most fun way to play).  Better to cherry pick what you actually want, in terms of best ways to level up, get better equipment, and so on and so forth.

Cheers!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: First impressions
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2011, 03:59:35 pm »
1. I guess I feel that "backing out" of a building/zone is so common, the method for doing this should be less complicated than navigating multiple map menus and clicking on the chunk I used to enter this building.  I just want to back out.  That should really be a single click operation.  Maybe a hot key similar to the "Use best available health potion" except for Warp Potions.

4. How about giving them the ability to alter their bounce by 1/2 the angel needed to hit the player.  They'd at least sort of feel like they might eventually head my way.  Either that, or up their threat a little so if I do foolishly run in to them it could be dangerous (maybe they stun me briefly, which could be bad in a boss fight).

5. Default difficulty.  I will certainly crank it up on my next run through.  I will probably recreate just because I feel like I've become completely lost and missed something at the beginning.  I've been navigating caves using the mini-map only, not even looking at the screen recently.  I figure that's probably an indicator I need a bit more challenge :) .

6. Looking forward to it!

7. While it is easy to understand, I think grid keys (12345, QWERT, ASDFG and ZXCVB) are also becoming pretty popular that expect you to keep one hand on the mouse constantly.  I realize default key layouts are extremely tough to nail down in a satisfying manner, but just figured I'd mention it.  Having ASDW for movement obviously is an additional obstacle to grid keys.  And I guess my issue with SPACE for jump is it feels so right for interact, and W is a good strong option for jumping.  I might try middle mouse button for interact.  Maybe that will feel better.

8. Done.

9. I guess what I'm missing is the Objectives list from AI Wars.  That list really helped me a ton when I was starting AI Wars.  I'm guessing in AVWW they'd really be more Suggestions than Objectives.  Also, how do I find the intro mission?

10. Guess I'll stop trying to "clear" that region then :) .

I just remembered something: I tried out the game cursor instead of the system cursor and found it lagged way behind my system mouse.  Is it supposed to do that?  I haven't tried it again since then.  Should have been around early 0.53x.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: First impressions
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2011, 04:10:39 pm »
1. A hotkey like that would certianly be a possibility, and is again the sort of thing for mantis.

4. No.  These are the cheesiest of the cheese enemies.  The elites will be more interesting.  If you are a good player and find these incredibly too easy, that's working like it should.  That means that the horrible players are still getting hit by them constantly. ;)

7. I've not encountered those kinds of controls, but they sound interesting.  Not of interest for me, really, but it's kind of like Dvorak keyboards in that I'm always glad to see people finding new things that are more efficient for them.

8. Thanks!

9. The problem with such a list is that it would quickly grow to thousands of potential suggestions here.  But also, this is basically what I've been saying since the start of beta or before: it's early days and you have to be a bit self-directed to play at that sort of stage.  Direction from the game can't really come until the underlying subsystems mature more and are all in place.  To find the intro mission, just start a new world and you're in it. :)


Regarding the game cursor versus the system cursor, that's just where unity detects the mouse.  That's the actual cursor position the game fires at, FYI -- your system mouse cursor is not representative of where the engine thinks the cursor is, unfortunately.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: First impressions
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2011, 04:52:22 pm »
Sort of on point 8, I've been thinking about ways to introduce cool but tucked away things to new players, akin to the intro mission.

It occurred to me, you see, that a lot of the cool stuff I was taking for granted in my last world I discovered through the release advice on the forums & mantis. Things like shrink and storm rush I had a lot of fun tracking down the materials for, because I'd read about them on here.

And those are pretty laid out for the player to see, relatively speaking. Yet nonetheless they're not, in my brand-new-world hat, immediately obvious. Sure, there's definitely some fun in stumbling across them as you get used to the interface, then forging out into the world in search of the materials - but I imagine as time goes on there are going to an ever increasing number of slightly-game-changing spells missed in all the excitement.

So, yeah, I was thinking about if there was any feasible way to have things like that introduced into the player's consciousness in a relatively procedural fashion. Like maybe when you first enter a region with cave access to X resource, there might be some chance of meeting another glyph bearer who comes over, says something like, "You've gotta check out the X round here - combined with Y you can #name of spell# - watch!" and then demonstrates the spell in question, repeats a couple of times then dashes off into the wilderness.

Or something!  :)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: First impressions
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2011, 04:54:19 pm »
Yeah, something along those lines would certainly be helpful -- then again, that sort of thing is also really tricky to do.  It's certainly a possibility for down the line.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: First impressions
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2011, 02:16:34 pm »
Really enjoying the intro mission.  Got up to the big skeletal boss, but died messing around with him.  Using max on both difficulties and finding that very solid.  Red Slimes are very nice pacing for the intro level.  Since it is an intro level it brought this video (some cursing) I recently watched to mind.  Good watch for those interested in game design or who love Mega Man.

I totally reworked my keybindings so I should be able to give feedback on that soon.  One immediate issue I encountered though: I can't bind CTRL+key to something?  :'(  I'm also trying out the in-game mouse instead of system mouse.

Also put #1 on mantis along with a few other things.