[FILLED] Looking for artist(s) to develop new style for A Valley Without Wind.

[x4000]

Ideal solution... get H to produce something close to the style and quality of G (with I'm sure their own touches and flourishes). In what's become a somewhat blunt thread, focus most on what's important. The are does NOT need to be amazing, just "good enough" to get people to look at and buy it on Steam. It's the gameplay that will sell the game long-term.

There is definitely a point of "good enough" with any studio.  You can spend infinite money on art, and we don't have infinite money or time.

Speaking of "long-term" - how interested are you (or the studio) in an "initial commission" followed by "micro-updates" with new spells, gear, "cosmetic enhancements" (hair/appearance stuff, or building/settlement art, etc)?

Myself and all the studios are very interested in this sort of thing.  Assuming that AVWW has a resurgence after the 2.0 major art overhaul, then working with studio H in particular would let us do quite a bit of art each month for free DLC following in roughly the budget for art that I already had.  And either way, whichever studio would be up for that, and whichever studio would also be involved and interested in expansions, etc.

Because if that is something that you (and/or they) are interested in, then your comfort working with them in a long-term relationship also comes into play, but might also give you the possibility to structure a different kind of contract/deal based on ongoing work.

Yes, this is a big factor.  Thus far this is H by far, although I'm talking to K about a completely unrelated project.  With G I just don't know them as well because there is such a time zone difference, and they knocked this out on the first try rather than having lots of back and forth.  But they did a lot of early discussion and due diligence on what we were looking for, which is part of why they knocked it out of the park on the first go in so many respects, I think.

I love the 1 (ONE) concept piece I've seen from G, but I hope you've seen more from them, as basing the decision on one mockup seems risky to me. H seems to be truly "hungry" for the job - redoing work, providing a variety of examples, and also negotiating price. There's certainly something to be said for that.

Yep, all this is true.  In terms of having seen more mockups from G, no, this is it.  What you see is what I have seen.  I have seen their other work, however, and it's not like this is a one-off fluke that they produced something that nice.  They're a really good studio.

Incidentally, someone mentioned the "team" approach taken by H as both a positive and a negative.  That's true at any of these studios, and most animation houses in general.  Studio H would have 8 artists working fulltime between now and November to get this overhaul done.  Studio G would have 5.  Both think that they can do it in that timeframe.

I'm truly sorry to hear how this is stressing you out and affecting you physically. I'm trying to steer all my friends to your games now as I have amazing respect for both the quality and types of games you produce.

I really hope that one day I'm able to pop on these forums and read a "Remember when?" thread about the AVWW 1.x days before the art change, the game's deserved resurgence, and all the features added to it 2.x-5.x 

I really appreciate the kind words.

[Ulrox]

Sorry, I didn't mean that to come off it like it sounded.  I'm just extremely stressed these days, to the point that I was quite ill yesterday.

That is very understandable. I'm schizotypal, that means that I am not entirely schizofrenic but somewhat. What we learn is that stress is the inciter of psychosis in people with the genetic vulnerability. As such I've been dwelving into various medicinal herbs which aid with coping with stress. Ginseng has proven to be very effective. A recommendation from the half crazy guy.

[BobTheJanitor]

I am sad to hear things aren't going that great. I hope it works out. Any chance AVWW is going to get a daily deal or flash sale spot on its own in the sale? Actually I'm sure you probably can't tell me that. But I'll hold out hope. I know some of the other games that have been in indie packs this sale have still gotten their own sales as well. I'm surprised and intrigued to hear that you guys have been working on another game already. Good job keeping it under wraps, because I believe this is the first I've heard that you were doing anything outside of AVWW and AI War updates. Here's hoping it's the best game ever and makes you all millionaires.

[x4000]

I am sad to hear things aren't going that great. I hope it works out. Any chance AVWW is going to get a daily deal or flash sale spot on its own in the sale? Actually I'm sure you probably can't tell me that. But I'll hold out hope. I know some of the other games that have been in indie packs this sale have still gotten their own sales as well.

I can't say anything directly.  But if that were the case coming up, I certainly wouldn't have a foregone conclusion about our finances coming up, as one hint.

I'm surprised and intrigued to hear that you guys have been working on another game already. Good job keeping it under wraps, because I believe this is the first I've heard that you were doing anything outside of AVWW and AI War updates. Here's hoping it's the best game ever and makes you all millionaires.

Not to tip my hand too much, but I've actually talked about a former incarnation of this game before, and it's had work done on it many years ago.  Only more recently, having become a more experienced game designer, have I learned what to do to bring the game to completion however.

I don't really care about being a millionaire, I just want to keep the staff here and keep making games that we want to make, so here's hoping for that.

[nanostrike]

Back to the subject of art, just how in love with studio g are people? Their estimate for the whole project is more like $50k instead of $30k with studio h. That makes a kickstarter that much less likely to succeed.

I like G a LOT more than any of the art styles I've seen so far, even H.  The art style in it just jumps off the screen and seems to fit together well.  And I could see it animating very well.


As far as cost goes...perhaps let G know that another studio quoted you $30k and see if they can make a counter-offer.  You'd be surprised at how often that sort of negotiation works.

[x4000]

You'd be surprised at how often that sort of negotiation works.

When it comes to creative work, generally I've found that it's best not to under-pay people if you're hoping for them to give their best.  But it's a possibility.

[Ragnarok]

I have no specific opinion regarding the new art style, i just want to share my little story. I'm a hardcore gamer at heart and i miss games like Master of Orion and Space Empires. A long time ago i stumbled upon AI War. I think was browsing some forums over at gamefaqs and the right banner "suggested" AI War, among 2 or 3 other niche space strategy games I downloaded the demo, but despite being pretty hardcore, i found the tutorial pretty much overwhelming. I was unfamiliar with the whole concept of AI war. I usually micro my guys in every game, but AI war is really more like total annhiliation or supreme commander. Anways, i stopped the demo and didn't bother again for several months. At some point Steam had a sale with all 4 expansions and i remembered the game and bought it rather cheap but on complete impulse. After 45 hours now i really like AI war a lot.

ONLY because of AI war did i try the Valley demo some days ago and then bought it full via Steam. The whole concept of Metroidvania with indi graphics is not to my liking, but the gameplay is fine.
The point is, i would not have bought the game judging by screenshots or a small description, because its not my genre and not my style. However, I'm still playing it (when I'm not playing AI war...)

I think in general a metroidvania is a rather uncommon (so say it nice) genre choice for a pc game. I think the target audience for a computer are quite different from a console, and that is the reason why AI war made good salesand valley did not. Strategy is a genre pc gamers like and console gamers rather dislike, its the opposite with metroidvania. I wish Arcen the best and i hope you guys focus on the right genres. Just like Microsoft did with Halo Wars for the box (despite it being HALO), an AAA or Indi company has the odds stacking against itself when they do something completely out of tune. I really cant tell if new art style will given sudden rise to Valley, but i believe it is unlikely. Art may be a problem for valley, but i think a bigger problem is genre and gameplay, which does not work too well with the PC crowd that is attuned more to strategy and rpgs. Lastly, I'm pretty sure the main audience for indis in general are old school gamers, i.e. people age 20+, who like nostaliga, good old times and stuff. The 80s and 90s where the age of Civiliation, Master of Magic, Fallout but being a gamer to the core i dont really remember and pc jump and runs from back then.

Long story short, i think the odds are stacked against valley and pouring money into the game is unlikely to have the effect you seek.
Regarding Kickstarter, i recently followed 3 game projects that were a success. Grim Dawn (Diablo), Xenonauts (UFO) and Wasteland 2 (Wasteland). These projects did suceed because of Nostalgia. People my age (28) remembering the good old days and hoping the indi remakes bring them back. Valley has no such prequel or rememberance.
I still love you guys, hoping for the best.

[tigersfan]

The 80s and 90s where the age of Civiliation, Master of Magic, Fallout but being a gamer to the core i dont really remember and pc jump and runs from back then.

Off the top of my head, there was Commander Keen, there was Duke Nukem (he was a side scroller first). There were others too, but there were the first names to jump out at me. And, when they were released, both of those games were insanely popular.

[x4000]

To be clear: AVWW has so far earned about 1/3 of the total revenues that AI War has.  As far as indie games go, it's been massively income-ful... until Diablo 3 came out.  In the first three weeks of AVWW's life, it earned 1/6th of everything we've ever earned in the history of the company from all our products combined.  So there is clearly some market there.

The main problem is that things then started to slide, and then never recovered.  And the other problem is that this game took 18 months of 3-5 people working fulltime to make, and thus cost almost a quarter million dollars to produce, and so hitting the "breakeven" point for the title is a much higher bar than for AI War (which was pretty much all profits because I just did it in my spare time and used free art at the start).

[x4000]

The 80s and 90s where the age of Civiliation, Master of Magic, Fallout but being a gamer to the core i dont really remember and pc jump and runs from back then.

Off the top of my head, there was Commander Keen, there was Duke Nukem (he was a side scroller first). There were others too, but there were the first names to jump out at me. And, when they were released, both of those games were insanely popular.

And more recently you have Aquaria, etc.

[Ragnarok]

Oh boy i have to say i forgot about Commander Keen and my favourite, "GODS" Sorry about that.
Well, i bought Valley, so, no harm to me. Still, i bought it because Arcen made AI War. I'm just saying I'm unsure if an art overhaul will reverse the trend in sales you have explained. I hope your plan works out.

[Misery]

I'm just extremely stressed these days, to the point that I was quite ill yesterday.

When your stressed, just remember you are awesome.  Some guy on the internet said so, and he seems like a pretty trustworthy kinda fellow.

I agree with this.   You guys have been pretty darn great throughout all of this.    One way or another, I think you've created something quite nice here.... the "HOLY CRAP ITS DIABLO ZOMG" sales drop kinda sucks, but I bet you can get to where you wanna be with this one.   I think that pretty much sums it up for me, art-related complaints aside.    And even my complaints about new art arent TOO negative..... not from me, anyway.   If I'm NOT complaining about something, I'm likely asleep.  And even then, that's not a certainty.


And I apologize if I rambled too much or seemed lecture-y at all;   I tend to randomly rant like that.   Wether or not I'm making SENSE or accomplishing anything, that's random too 

I absolutely and completely DESPISE most AAA games (and this is after actually TRYING them, mind you!)

I lol'd.

It's sad but true.   Mostly got rid of the consoles as a result.... I got a JP 360 for import shmups, and the PS3..... well, is usually a doorstop, but it does other things every now and then.

I figure what do I need those for when I got the PC here?   I'd rather be playing games like this one anyway.

[nanostrike]

Well...for one thing, I haven't seen A Valley Without Wind on any of Steam's main store pages in weeks.  That's probably one issue with it.

If people don't see it on there, they don't know it exists and don't buy it.



And the second problem is the art itself.  It really turns a lot of people away from the game.  If they looked past that, I'm sure they'd love it, but they aren't gonna look past it.





Also, AI Wars still gives me nightmares where all my Green Dots are overwhelmed by a ton of Red Dots and I have no idea why.

[yllamana]

Random suggestion you've probably already come up with: maybe it'd be good to have the chosen studio redo the big steam splash (that thing that comes up when, I assume, you pay Valve a bunch of money for it to appear there, cycling through the different ads). That way people can be like, wow, what is this elegant game that I've never seen before? and click it even though they saw the old one already. The current one is actually really pretty but it might help.

I also wanted to comment on a turn of phrase in the steam blurb. I don't know how easily you can change it, but I liked most of it except for "The game adapts to how you play: as you demonstrate your proficiency, monsters and missions upgrade accordingly. Killed 100 bats? Okay, time for... bats on fire!" That seems to sell it short to me, probably largely because of the specific number of bats provided there. Something airier (like the first sentence, really) might be better.

I also really want to make a thread on bubble-popping because bubble-popping is awesome.

I hope you feel better soon, Chris.

[Misery]

Random suggestion you've probably already come up with: maybe it'd be good to have the chosen studio redo the big steam splash (that thing that comes up when, I assume, you pay Valve a bunch of money for it to appear there, cycling through the different ads). That way people can be like, wow, what is this elegant game that I've never seen before? and click it even though they saw the old one already. The current one is actually really pretty but it might help.

I also wanted to comment on a turn of phrase in the steam blurb. I don't know how easily you can change it, but I liked most of it except for "The game adapts to how you play: as you demonstrate your proficiency, monsters and missions upgrade accordingly. Killed 100 bats? Okay, time for... bats on fire!" That seems to sell it short to me, probably largely because of the specific number of bats provided there. Something airier (like the first sentence, really) might be better.

I also really want to make a thread on bubble-popping because bubble-popping is awesome.

I hope you feel better soon, Chris.

I dunno, I thought the line with the bats was funny.    And the game really DOES have alot of bats, doesnt it..... other games go for just normal bats and make them as obnoxious as possible.... THIS one has fire bats and ice bats and miasma bats and sonic bats and MANY BATS.

Dunno what it is with gaming in general, and bats.   Tend to be everywhere.