Author Topic: [FILLED] Looking for artist(s) to develop new style for A Valley Without Wind.  (Read 159112 times)

Offline x4000

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Were the GDI+ parts of pre-Unity-AIW's drawing using DirectDraw under there somewhere?  My guess is it was that or something even worse ;)

GDI and GDI+ are both software-only rendering modes.  They are actually really excellent for 2D (same as WPF is) so long as the 2D is not having a lot of animations going on.  So, great (and quite high performance) for static menus and such, but terrible for actual gameplay.  At one point I had a 100% GDI+ version of Alden Ridge running, and it was functional although the buffering of GDI+ meant that it couldn't do more than about 10-20fps even with the CPU sitting there idle half the time.  And it was doing it all on the CPU rather than the GPU, given that's the nature of GDI: to be ultra-flexible with hardware and good at drawing mostly-static 2D stuff, including text and complex shapes.
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Offline Brise Bonbons

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The transparency in this discussion is wonderful. Can't wait to see some of the art prototypes; if they actually get shown off on the forum that would be amazing, though it's honestly not something I expected.

Also as someone making a go at learning Unity, the discussion of its capabilities and strategies to optimize 2D art has been very educational. Thanks to everyone for that!

Offline Professor Paul1290

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It really depends on the studio and what their costs wind up being for whatever the final selected style is.  There are over 4,000 pieces of art that need to be transitioned as it stands (though a lot of the particle effects and some other minor things like that can remain), not to mention we then need to also have a budget to continue to do art for new enemies and objects and such as we develop out the game further.  Arcen can cover a certain amount of that, but depending on the style we go with we're increasing our cost-per-enemy by quite a lot. As it stands, for us to code you a new enemy and do all the art and such typically costs between $20 and $100.

It could be more like $400 per new enemy in the new system, depending on who we go with and what art style we choose; which is why we'd need extra money to carry us further with development of new content.  We don't want to hit a point where we simply can't proceed anymore because the code is willing but the art is just too darn expensive.

I really don't want to be a too negative about this, but my enthusiasm for this idea just dropped like a stone here. I don't have a complete picture of how you do things and may be this isn't as bad as I think it is.

As far as Kickstarter goes, this is worrying because there seem to be projects much more publicized and more liked by the public than AVWW that can't make $100,000.

I can easily see this being very negative publicity for Arcen. Personally from what I've seen so far on Kickstarter, I can't see an AVWW art Kickstarter going well, and I can see it making Arcen look bad.
Maybe I'm horrifically cynical, but I'd be surprised if the majority response outside of those who already like the game was anything other "They're seriously asking for money for this? Are they really this incompetent? I can't believe we liked these guys in the first place!".

I really hope I'm wrong, but I would be lying if I said this idea isn't conjuring up really bad possible scenarios for me right now, some being "worrying the game won't see any updates next year" kind of bad.


I'm being a worrywart right now. I'm gonna get some ice cream... :-\

Offline Aklyon

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Ice cream solves a lot of problems. But not many art-related ones that I can think of.

Offline x4000

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Professor Paul: from what I've seen, quite lesser projects have gotten lots more budget, I humbly submit.  Some folks that seem barely able to code at all, and have pre-Quake-II-looking art have managed to get $60k+ by making extravagant promises they can't hope to keep.

In our case, I'm going to present the facts and let people decide.  The fact is, making games costs a lot of money.  Another fact is, there's a lot of repetition and staleness in games; we genuinely try to do something new, and we put our own budget to that at the expensive of art.  We don't have budget to do both.

Since some people gripe that the art stinks, we're offering them a chance to help change that via a kickstarter.  If they don't find the idea appealing, they can simply vote by not funding it.  On the plus side, unlike a lot of kickstarters people will know exactly what they are getting: the game already exists, and the prototype of the new graphics will be complete enough that people can fund it if they like it.

At worst it can help to bring to light the costs of art development in games: if people want to bemoan the lack of innovation in games while at the same time demanding AAA quality out of anything they play, they're going to be perpetually disappointed.  The people with the AAA budgets have corporate overlords that won't let them take the sorts of creative risks we do.  People like myself don't have the AAA sort of budgets, and so there's no question of my being able to fund it at that level.

I'm not sure what is distressing to you about the costs I mentioned above.  Did you think it was free for us to create a new enemy?  All the art and coding just pops magically into place?  Even if we were paying coders only $15 an hour (which we do not), $20 for an enemy is incredibly cheap.  I bet you the average enemy in a AAA game costs over $10,000 to create when all is said and done.  And that's probably undershooting it when you figure the concept artists, the modelers, the riggers, the animators, the coders, the AI, and whatever else.  A lot of AAA games have something like 20 unique enemies but took 10+ years and millions of dollars to create.  It's not like all their time was spent on enemy creation, but that's certainly a big part of it.

We're incredibly lean and efficient about the whole process here at Arcen, but the fact is we're not one of the ultra-tiny indies that do 4-bit or 8-bit graphics and a small game, or even one of the teams of 6 people who are 1/3 artists and they do something that looks pleasing but which also gives you a couple of hours of playtime.

But if your enthusiasm is dropping like a stone when you contemplate the huge costs of each enemy added when it's all custom art that looks nice, that's pretty close to how I felt early into this project.  There was no way that was going to be sustainable on my budget, and so hence the stock art approach with myself doing all the lighting and post-work and such.  Since that has been met with derision, I'm offering those who seem to want to like the game but don't like the graphics a way to get what they want: the game with graphics they like.

If there aren't enough people who want that, then the kickstarter won't get funded, and I'm only out a few thousand dollars, and life moves on.  I won't be offended; in some ways having the kickstarter NOT get funded would be a vindication of my past choices, wouldn't it?  But if it does get funded then presumably we're reaching a larger audience and making more people happy, and having a better-looking game to boot.

Depending on what style and what studio we go with, our ongoing cost-per-enemy could be quite a bit lower than the $400 high water mark I mentioned, of course, as well.  But that's likely to be a lower-res pixelart style that will at least look pleasingly cohesive (and probably load faster and be better on RAM, I expect).

If anyone thinks that designers/programmers are incompetent because the art they produce looks like what is what is in AVWW based on the budget we've had, then I don't know what to say to that.  Those sorts of folks aren't reasonable and likely already hate us anyhow -- certain people already go out of their way to do things like sign up on metacritic just to give us a 0/10 review for the game.  So it's clear there are some haters one way or the other.

In the end, I think it's about choice.  There's no way I'm going to gamble and try to fund a major art overhaul myself.  That would be madness, and could end the company if the gamble didn't pay off.  That would be incompetence.  On the other hand, I see relatively little harm in offering players (prospective or actual) a choice of whether the art is worth it to them.  There are already plenty of people who think I'm highly incompetent anyhow, so a few more won't make any difference.  The lucky thing is there's a lot of people in the world.
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Offline TechSY730

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I'm going to have to share some of Professor Paul1290's concerns about publicity here.

It seems like soliciting money for a major refactoring of a major aspect of a product, that by many people's standards, should of been done right in the first place (or right enough such that a new "project fund" had to be created to "fix" it) isn't something that will inspire much confidence.
An art revamp of this magnitude (assuming an major art revamp is what is chosen) without declaring it a new product line I rarely see outside of free software projects, where that culture is much more willing to embrace the idea of art and the game engine being developed separately.
(EDIT: Note, this implies that this is in large part a problem of unrealistic expectations of many consumers of games, aka, a cultural problem, not a developer competency one)

Now, as a long time "lurker", and as someone who has seen this product evolve from its brainstorm phases, to its first public beta release, to where it is now, I know that the primary focus of the funds has been into R&D. The art, while by no means neglected, didn't get as much of a percentage of the funds as many people might expect in project, and that this new initiative is primarily here to help give the art the extra "oomph" to sort of "catch up" from that earlier decision. (BTW, I think focusing on the engine and gameplay first was the right decision, even if it lead to tricky issues like what we have now) (EDIT: And you guys did a great job with the art even as it is now. This whole initiative seems to be about fixing some inconsistencies and gaps in the current art, that due to both stylistic and unforeseeable technical reasons, will possibly turn out to be expensive to fix)
However, this would be VERY hard to communicate to someone who hasn't been seeing the history of this product as long in a convincing enough way to overcome that initial negative first impression.

(EDIT: Semi-ninja'd by Chris)
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 04:19:48 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline freeformschooler

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This is normally the point where I suggest making the game be ASCII so you can forego the art costs...

...but somehow I doubt that works here. :P Regardless, hope it works out.

Offline keith.lamothe

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If people fuss when a game lacks depth, and fuss when a game's art isn't what they want, and fuss when the developers of a deep game seek funding to improve the art, then I think we're already in an situation that is not winnable regardless of our competence level or what we do :)

Hmm, so maybe that's what it feels like when you scout a homeworld and see 3 core raid engines and an eye...
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Id like to point out that a certain project asked for more $$ in order to complete its game. That game going by the name of Xenonauts.

And it got supported. So I don't see how that's any different from AVWW asking for money to complete its game. The difference being is that it's asking after the game has been completed, not before.

Just pointing this out. Kickstarters fund some off-the-wall ideas and people can literally vote with their wallets on whether those ideas go through or not. If people decide they hate this idea, then, it doesnt happen. But tbh, to worry about public opinion too much at this stage is folly. Many hated on the art before without trying the game so if those people hate this decision, Arcen has lost nothing.

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Offline mrhanman

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I really hope that this is successful.  Not because I have a particular problem with the art as it is, but because I think it will widen the audience for the game.  That will lead to more money for Arcen, and that leads to more content for me.   8)

And really, isn't that what it's all about?

Offline yllamana

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A Valley Without Dwarf.

I've never done a kickstarter before, so I'm looking forwards to seeing what incentives there are to fund it. I'll put a bit of money down whatever they are. :)

I hope there are good incentives for people who haven't already bought the game to give it a kick, too.

Offline Professor Paul1290

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But if your enthusiasm is dropping like a stone when you contemplate the huge costs of each enemy added when it's all custom art that looks nice, that's pretty close to how I felt early into this project.  There was no way that was going to be sustainable on my budget, and so hence the stock art approach with myself doing all the lighting and post-work and such.

That pretty much hits the nail on the head about my concerns about the art costs.
I'm not surprised it costs as much as it does to add enemies, objects, and other assets and such. What really hits hard is the increase per asset this could represent.

The idea that this can quadruple the costs of adding stuff to the game is what I find particularly worrying. From my perspective this sounds almost "pipeline crippling", for lack of a better phrase.

Again, I'm not entirely familiar with your process or what sort of scale is involved, so I'm probably not seeing this in context.


Anyway, I'll admit I don't feel quite as nervous about this now that you've laid it out a bit more.

Offline eRe4s3r

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So I am the only one who thinks 100k is maybe even cutting it a bit close on the lower end? Remember taxes, fees, and non payers, so you are calculating (I hope) with at beast 80k$ guaranteed if it succeeds assuming a clean 100k at the end, and that is VERY little money for a project to redesign the art of this entire game from scratch. I mean what, 4000 fixed sprites and 45 animated potential player characters.....

@Professor Paul1290

Buying someones time to make animated sprites for games is extremely expensive, that is not a skill that is taught, people go straight to 3D suites, animation of 3d characters, high detail sculpting nowadays or hard modeling/rendering. It takes extreme skill in art design to make a detailed character move and DRAW that properly by hand. Even more so when it is "low" resolution and has to fit an established art-style relating to the background...

I don't think it'll be bad PR to be honest. If ye don't want to pay the art remains the same, if ye pay, the art will change (which hopefully means improve ^^) Kickstarter is the only viable way but a success is not guaranteed, if it fails it's something for the life lessons ;) And even if it fails AI War addon ought to come and maybe a new proper 4x game hehe ;P I just hope whatever happens, the sustainability of Arcengames is not engangered. As long as that is 100% certain I don't see why not at least try this ;P
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 05:19:57 pm by eRe4s3r »
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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There's always the tried and true method of corner cutting: palette swaps. Blue esper, green esper, red esper, etc. etc. Not that I'm advocating it, but it's one way to cut down on art. Instead of unique character models, you have guy with red hair, guy with black hair, etc.

Offline madcow

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I hope we get a chance to see the different artist takes, even the styles you decide not to go with. I'm not sure if it was mentioned already (a lot of posts here to wade through), but will the art revamp include more frames in animations, or will that be left as is? I personally liked the background features, but found the characters a little jarring - though not to the point that it really bothered me.

As to a kickstarter project. I don't know, I think people tend to fund projects based on those lofty ambitious goals that seem unreasonable to actually reach - rather than cold hard facts. But if the kickstarter doesn't get enough, its not like anything is particularly lost, so its worth a try.

My 2 cents when it comes to the actual kickstarter ad, it would definitely be worth pointing at, or hinting at what future features are going to be going into the game (and of course saying it'll happen regardless of the kickstarter funding), and the amazing near-daily updates that adds tons of new free content which most other companies would charge as DLC for.