[FILLED] Looking for artist(s) to develop new style for A Valley Without Wind.

[x4000]

That, though, isnt really a problem with the game itself.   It's more of an industry problem.   Alot of games are super hyper may-as-well-play-themselves easy as heck, and WAY too many gamers are used to this.   If the game in question isnt utterly braindead, you're GOING to lose potential buyers literally "because thinking is hard".   Or because ANYTHING is hard, really.

I'm glad AVWW didn't do that kind of crap.  There's enough games out there that I could play and beat while asleep, I dont really need another one, heh.

It's not so much that the learning curve is bad;  it's that it HAS a learning curve. AKA, you have to read stuff and think about it.

Feh.   As always I miss the days of the NES and such.  Where the game ASSUMED that you read the bloody manual beforehand.   And THEN it kicked your ass into next week.    And this was the norm.   Ah, good times....

You've really hit upon two points there:

1. People like you who actually want a game that differs from the industry norms are are bread and butter target audience.  In other words, people who are happy with the way that AAA titles are structured and their difficulty and graphics and so forth are never going to buy from an indie like Arcen anyhow -- why would they?  EA can give them a much flashier package, and we can never compete on graphics at that level.  So all we have to go on is actual gameplay, plus offering an artistic style that people find endearing or fun or nostalgic or whatever -- the problem being at the moment that many people have found the art style actively abrasive and driving them away.

2. As I noted just a second ago (after you wrote the above), the difficulty isn't actively turning people away.  Our demo conversion rate is six times the average for most AAA games.  If anything, those who try our game at all are far more likely to buy our game than they are if they try a demo of a major AAA game.  For whatever reason. 

Now, the problem is that the pool of people either trying the demo or outright buying the game without trying the demo is far too small -- so that means that they are using only the following sources as guides:
a. The videos on Steam.
b. The screenshots on Steam.
c. The description text on Steam (which we are pretty confident is strong).
d. Reviews, to a lesser extent, if they google them (and depending on what sites they visit, or if they go to Metacritic or whatever, they will form vastly different opinions).
e. Word of mouth, to a disappointingly low extent on this game so far, but it's early yet.  It took a while for this ball to get rolling with AI War, too.


The only two items that we can directly control at this point are a and b, and they are both solved by the art revamp.  They have a chance of also influencing both d and e positively, especially when combined with the 1.1 and 1.2 updates we've already done that have made the game so much better.  Plus the ongoing small bits of content between now and then.

That's my read on the situation, with the data that I have.

[keith.lamothe]

In other words, people who are happy with the way that AAA titles are structured and their difficulty and graphics and so forth are never going to buy from an indie like Arcen anyhow -- why would they?  EA can give them a much flashier package, and we can never compete on graphics at that level.

One key reason for some people (probably a pretty small group, but still) is that generally indies don't add DRM/online-services-platforms/etc that actively hurt your ability to enjoy the game.

But to some extent that probably just drives people away from gaming, rather than towards indies, unless the indies were doing something they liked apart from the lack of that kind of interference.

[x4000]

In other words, people who are happy with the way that AAA titles are structured and their difficulty and graphics and so forth are never going to buy from an indie like Arcen anyhow -- why would they?  EA can give them a much flashier package, and we can never compete on graphics at that level.

One key reason for some people (probably a pretty small group, but still) is that generally indies don't add DRM/online-services-platforms/etc that actively hurt your ability to enjoy the game.

But to some extent that probably just drives people away from gaming, rather than towards indies, unless the indies were doing something they liked apart from the lack of that kind of interference.

That, too.  Though some indies use online activation and such anyhow.

[keith.lamothe]

That, too.  Though some indies use online activation and such anyhow.

That's nothing compared to some of the crap I've had to go through for some games.  It's rare that I buy anything AAA nowadays due to DRM, but when I do it reminds me why I don't

[madcow]

Its sad to hear that after AVWW's initial high sales it tapered out a little too much. Hopefully the art style revamp will help with both awareness of the game, and the resulting change in look will help with sales as well.

[Misery]

Its sad to hear that after AVWW's initial high sales it tapered out a little too much. Hopefully the art style revamp will help with both awareness of the game, and the resulting change in look will help with sales as well.

I for one do think that Diablo 3's violent, explody release *really* didn't help any of this..... the timing was very..... bad.   Not just for AVWW and Arcen, but for plenty of others in general.   There was alot of "Yup, not gonna play anything else for the next 2000 years, Diablo just came out!" sort of thing.    ......the fact that half of those players ended up WHINING about it is another matter, but still. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say that quite alot of games had their sales damaged pretty badly just by that ONE release.   




Beyond that though.....

.....based on all this, it sounds like the problem isnt getting players to stick with the game after trying it..... it's getting them to try it in the first place.    Or, getting them to even know about it.   And I swear, the "press" can be REALLY random with these.   Even just on IndieGameBlog, which is the main (only) one I use most of the time.... this being due to the fact that I actually remember it's there.... sometimes they'll show some awesome stuff, sometimes they'll show some deeply stupid stuff, and sometimes they'll completely ignore some things that you'd think they WOULD highlight, or perhaps highlighting something but giving the written equivilent of "Yeah, so, here's this game, it exists, bye now". 

Though, I'm surprised that the demo-to-actual-purchase conversion rate is so high.  Usually it really does seem like anything whatsoever complicated is ignored half the time, even in the indie scene.  I think this is at least proof that you've hit upon a genuinely good, fun game.


On the note of Steam though:   Steam can be sometimes..... hard to browse.  I'll often hear about something on there that I know I'd really like, and even being on Steam pretty much daily I'd NEVER ONCE HEARD OF, which is..... kinda stupid.   This happens really often though (to me, anyway).   Likely isnt helping matters.

[madcow]

On the idea of getting knowledge of the game out there. A good LPs series, especially by a popular youtube personality could give tons of exposure, and a new and distinctive art style can really help with that. So there's always hope.

[Ulrox]

I cannot find flaw with your argumentation X4000. I personally think the D3 factor has a lot to say too. I have 250 hours played lifetime in D3 but when you consider its good items dropchances and how the whole game design revolves around the auction house I began seeing it more and more as a trap to lure money out of me, which isn't something I feel good about

I have to admit that I'm no fan of the art, but that doesn't hinder me from enjoying the game. If *I* had my will with this game it would be a complete castlevania revamp with castlevania/turrican music (lol ) but I'm nutty

The main thing which drove me to buy AI war was the coop. There's just not enough good coop games out there. Your entire game company just seem to revolve around making solid coop experiences, which is why I hope dearly that you succeed in keeping yourself afloat, even if avww doesn't work out.

[Ulrox]

Sorry about double posting, but Brian Fargo just tweeted these article/documents about kickstarter. You might find them to be interesting.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2088298

http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/17/the-untold-story-behind-kickstarter-stats-infographic/#.UAX8v8Tbpfc.twitter

[Misery]

I cannot find flaw with your argumentation X4000. I personally think the D3 factor has a lot to say too. I have 250 hours played lifetime in D3 but when you consider its good items dropchances and how the whole game design revolves around the auction house I began seeing it more and more as a trap to lure money out of me, which isn't something I feel good about

I have to admit that I'm no fan of the art, but that doesn't hinder me from enjoying the game. If *I* had my will with this game it would be a complete castlevania revamp with castlevania/turrican music (lol ) but I'm nutty

The main thing which drove me to buy AI war was the coop. There's just not enough good coop games out there. Your entire game company just seem to revolve around making solid coop experiences, which is why I hope dearly that you succeed in keeping yourself afloat, even if avww doesn't work out.

I would love Castlevania-style graphics for this.   Though it depends on exactly WHICH one, but mostly they're all pretty darn good.    The 2D ones that is.

[Armanant]

... sad stuff about steam sale not doing well...

....

Just bought 2 extra copies of AVWW and an extra copy of AI war. I'll find someone to give them to i'm sure. Time to show them off during my lunch break at work!

[eRe4s3r]

brings to mind a very famous quote

"never compromise your message to attain a greater audience" at some point there has to be a simple reality-meet-wishes situation that goes like this:

How many people nowadays still care for side-scrolling platformers (no matter the kind) (the answer is very, very few*)

*The second problem is that many people would have played AVWW if it had stayed Isometric (or something other 2.5D) even with ugly graphics because that was a very unique idea with much potential and If it had become a "procedural isometric build your civilization and go out explore push back the wind and care for the people you rescue" kind of game, the impact would have been immense indeed (how many of those do you know?). But a sidescroller no matter the content (which is fairly good now in AVWW) will never have the pull to bring in new people. People do not grow up with sidescrollers anymore unless the sidescroller is doing some of exceptional quality and uniqueness they will not be aware of it at all.

And those who grew up with sidescrollers are either sick of em (no offense) or are looking for particular challenges (I assume the SHMUP crowd sorta likes AVWW because it often needs real skill).

I think the current game is not bad. It's just that to me, what AVWW is now is the battle mode. And what AVWW was before the switch to Isometric was the core game idea. So basically, my dream AVWW is isometric (even 3D) and for combat it switches to side-scroller. Because.. that would be unique and imo, great fun ;p

As for sales in Summer Sales. Now that steam doesn't do game challenges anymore there is likely not a huge pull to Indy games when this sale is. 99% of my indy games on Steam are from potato sack, humble bundles or some insane bundle sales.

[Misery]

brings to mind a very famous quote

"never compromise your message to attain a greater audience" at some point there has to be a simple reality-meet-wishes situation that goes like this:

How many people nowadays still care for side-scrolling platformers (no matter the kind) (the answer is very, very few*)

*The second problem is that many people would have played AVWW if it had stayed Isometric (or something other 2.5D) even with ugly graphics because that was a very unique idea with much potential and If it had become a "procedural isometric build your civilization and go out explore push back the wind and care for the people you rescue" kind of game, the impact would have been immense indeed (how many of those do you know?). But a sidescroller no matter the content (which is fairly good now in AVWW) will never have the pull to bring in new people. People do not grow up with sidescrollers anymore unless the sidescroller is doing some of exceptional quality and uniqueness they will not be aware of it at all.

And those who grew up with sidescrollers are either sick of em (no offense) or are looking for particular challenges (I assume the SHMUP crowd sorta likes AVWW because it often needs real skill).

I think the current game is not bad. It's just that to me, what AVWW is now is the battle mode. And what AVWW was before the switch to Isometric was the core game idea. So basically, my dream AVWW is isometric (even 3D) and for combat it switches to side-scroller. Because.. that would be unique and imo, great fun ;p

As for sales in Summer Sales. Now that steam doesn't do game challenges anymore there is likely not a huge pull to Indy games when this sale is. 99% of my indy games on Steam are from potato sack, humble bundles or some insane bundle sales.

That REALLY depends on the audience.   There's actually been quite a ton of platformers lately.   Not necessarily on the consoles, mind you.... frankly, I wouldnt know if there were, consoles and their AAA games (and damn near everything else on them) just bore me most of the time, so I pay them no mind....   I think that genre is more popular than it sometimes seems, considering the EXTREME NUMBERS of things like FPS games, FPS games, and FPS games that tend to obscure it (and other genres).

I've seen some of the videos of the previous incarnation of this game, the overhead stuff..... frankly, I'd not have stuck with that very long at all.   The combat looked slow, and looked mostly numbers-based, as opposed to the current version where you can actually dodge stuff, and the areas in particular honestly just looked dull.   That, and it's an idea that's been done about 10 kersquillion times already.    I'm not entirely sure just what prompted the change, but I'm glad they did it.

It's another thing I like about indie devs:  usually, they make the games THEY want to make, as opposed to ALWAYS trying to pander to a certain audience like the big devs do.    If someone wants to make a shmup instead of yet another bloody FPS, they can do so.   The big guys cant really do that (and also just WONT do it even when they probably could).   AVWW isnt for everyone, but it's darn good for those that it's right for.

Never got tired of platformers myself, and I know many others who would say the same.

[eRe4s3r]

Yeah, which is why I want side-scrolling for combat, but for building a town and traveling on the world map, a pseudo 3d view (or even a 3d-view) is superior. See Total War or Heroes of M&M

It's just that, I don't see how AVWW could ever have any pull on the masses. It has no feature where you would say "that is totally awesomely unique" and that means you have literally 0 hope to draw in people who don't like SHMUPS because while it is a platformer in a sense, with a story (barely) at the core it is a complex side-scrolling shooter. And imo a game in that kind of genre has nearly no chance nowadays, I mean, no chance to break-through into the million sales.

This is mainly why I think that if the Kickstarter fails, AI War new expansion and then NEW GAME would be the better choice. AVWW is there, and it is what it is. Changing the graphics has as much chance not to draw in a single new customer as it has to draw in a million. The thing is, if Arcengames has other ideas to pursue maybe that should be done instead. Because unlike AI War which is always a different experience, AVWW is essentially always the same so an addon would need to add so much new content that it likely becomes prohibitively expensive. Particularly if the Kickstarter succeeds.

[cupogoodness]

On the idea of getting knowledge of the game out there. A good LPs series, especially by a popular youtube personality could give tons of exposure, and a new and distinctive art style can really help with that. So there's always hope.

I think so too. We've already had LP videos and series from a few pretty popular channels (and lots of smaller ones), though our one time WTF is? video from TotalBiscuit is far and away the most traffic our game has received via Youtube.

As far as getting in contact with these 'popular youtube personalities', I've found that to be about as difficult as getting in touch with any big name press (at least most of the time).

Regardless it's something we've tried and will keep trying. It's amazingly helpful to have someone other than us promote, and perhaps more importantly explain the game when trying to show potential players what exactly they're missing out on.