Author Topic: [FILLED] Looking for artist(s) to develop new style for A Valley Without Wind.  (Read 159232 times)

Offline Mánagarmr

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I'm torn, tbh. Sure, they're nice and all, but they don't provoke that "click" feeling that Studio G's images did. The second is likely the better one, but the background was largely uninspiring. I did like the pose. Looks like the animation work could be really good there.
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Offline x4000

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Bear in mind that most of the strongest elements from each mockup will likely be combined into the final product. Not much from image 3, I agree. And there are still 4 other concept pieces coming from this studio, and one from studio K in a painterly form.

Personally I'm loving the shaping of 1 with the detail of 2 as my top at the moment.
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Offline yllamana

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I wonder what 4 looks like when it's not tiny (it seemed to be on a different scale to the rest?). It looks really cool.

I think G still looks overall more coherent, though.

Offline Martyn van Buren

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I'd really like to see the "ruined" feeling from G come through in the final product, whether or not they do it.

By the way, with the costs the studios are quoting, is there any chance of a new art style happening without a Kickstarter?

Offline x4000

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By the way, with the costs the studios are quoting, is there any chance of a new art style happening without a Kickstarter?

At this point, definitely not. For the first weeks AVVW was out, it was selling at 3x the rate that AI War was when it was first on steam. Then Diablo 3 came out and the very next day our sales plummeted. They did not recover, but it was also summer (which is always a slow period) so we were not too concerned. We knew we had the steam summer sale coming up, and if that went well then potentially we could fund this on our own. Either way it could be really good money if we even just matched what AI War made last year in the summer sale, let alone hit 3x what AI War had sold as the trend had been before Diablo 3.

Instead we sold 1/6th what we thought the minimum bar was. This doesn't jeapordize the company as a whole, but it does mean that a number of things are going to have to shift soon. More on that coming up, but a successful kickstarter is completely a prerequisite at this point for the art reskin.

On the bright side, with studio H we should be able to do the entire reskin for about $30k or at most $40k AND have it done by November, in time for the holidays. The press has largely ignored our awesome 1.1 and 1.2 updates, so the graphics really seem to be a barrier here. The plan is for Arcen to fund about $15k of the makeover, and ask for about $15k (if that's what the final number turns out to be) from kickstarter.

Again, more news on all this soon (early August, mostly). But suffice it to say, Arcen as a company now has to get creative and split focus a lot more than I would have preferred in an ideal scenario. Still, I think we've got a lot of really exciting things going on, a lot of which we haven't even talked about publicly yet. That whole "open development" thing was a really interesting experiment, but it led to astronomical expectations for AVVW. We don't want a repeat of that, as that sets ourselves up for failure.

I still think that AVVW can get where it needs to go, ultimately. But it's going to take longer and likely take a new visual look, etc. That's going to be the main focus for the next few months, along with bugfixes and balance tweaks and new bits of content (spells, etc) every week or two. As opposed to an ongoing massive focus on reinvention and broad expansion of mechanics like we have been doing; that will need to wait until after the art reskin is completed.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2012, 06:43:51 pm by x4000 »
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Offline nanostrike

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There are Chaos Space Marines with a full mane of hair left?  I don't recall one with a truly intact face.[/quote]

Slaanesh loves pretty-boy Space Marines in his Chaos bunch.




Still not too keen on H's styles.  They just look really blurry, abstract, and disjointed.  To me, they don't seem to fit together.  G still has my vote, by far.

Offline Ulrox

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On the bright side, with studio H we should be able to do the entire reskin for about $30k or at most $40k AND have it done by November, in time for the holidays. The press has largely ignored our awesome 1.1 and 1.2 updates, so the graphics really seem to be a barrier here. The plan is for Arcen to fund about $15k of the makeover, and ask for about $15k (if that's what the final number turns out to be) from kickstarter.

The stats for games seeking funding on kickstarter is 25% success rate, everything else has something like 35% sucess rate (possible higher)

Offline x4000

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On the bright side, with studio H we should be able to do the entire reskin for about $30k or at most $40k AND have it done by November, in time for the holidays. The press has largely ignored our awesome 1.1 and 1.2 updates, so the graphics really seem to be a barrier here. The plan is for Arcen to fund about $15k of the makeover, and ask for about $15k (if that's what the final number turns out to be) from kickstarter.

The stats for games seeking funding on kickstarter is 25% success rate, everything else has something like 35% sucess rate (possible higher)

The statistics of that sort of thing aren't really too meaningful. How many of those games are just at the "hopeless concept" stage? How many are from new studios with no audience or fans yet? Etc.

I'm not saying we'll be successful for sure, but if we aren't it won't be because of those statistics. Those statistics encompass far too many variables.  Also? Getting an article written about your indie game on kotaku, or getting your indie game on steam, both have success rates far lower than the kickstarter success rate. Yet here we are.
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Offline Misery

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Ok, opinions on these:

1:  ......what IS this?   This seriously looks like what happens if *I* try to draw something.   AKA, it's all scribbles.   We've got ScribbleGuy there standing in front of some squiggly lines, with more squiggly lines off in the distance, and yet more squiggly lines in the foreground.  I'm just gonna try not to think too hard about this one.  I cant give a real opinion on this because aside from ScribbleGuy and what I *think* is supposed to be a door on the left, I cant tell what any of that is.

2:  No. 

3:  This so far is probably the only one I DONT instantly dislike.  This being because it's NOT dreary and colorless like all of the others.   The character and Flying Bladed Whatsit look a little off, though.   

4:  Definitely no.





By the way, with the costs the studios are quoting, is there any chance of a new art style happening without a Kickstarter?

At this point, definitely not. For the first weeks AVVW was out, it was selling at 3x the rate that AI War was when it was first on steam. Then Diablo 3 came out and the very next day our sales plummeted. They did not recover, but it was also summer (which is always a slow period) so we were not too concerned. We knew we had the steam summer sale coming up, and if that went well then potentially we could fund this on our own. Either way it could be really good money if we even just matched what AI War made last year in the summer sale, let alone hit 3x what AI War had sold as the trend had been before Diablo 3.

Instead we sold 1/6th what we thought the minimum bar was. This doesn't jeapordize the company as a whole, but it does mean that a number of things are going to have to shift soon. More on that coming up, but a successful kickstarter is completely a prerequisite at this point for the art reskin.

On the bright side, with studio H we should be able to do the entire reskin for about $30k or at most $40k AND have it done by November, in time for the holidays. The press has largely ignored our awesome 1.1 and 1.2 updates, so the graphics really seem to be a barrier here. The plan is for Arcen to fund about $15k of the makeover, and ask for about $15k (if that's what the final number turns out to be) from kickstarter.

Again, more news on all this soon (early August, mostly). But suffice it to say, Arcen as a company now has to get creative and split focus a lot more than I would have preferred in an ideal scenario. Still, I think we've got a lot of really exciting things going on, a lot of which we haven't even talked about publicly yet. That whole "open development" thing was a really interesting experiment, but it led to astronomical expectations for AVVW. We don't want a repeat of that, as that sets ourselves up for failure.

I still think that AVVW can get where it needs to go, ultimately. But it's going to take longer and likely take a new visual look, etc. That's going to be the main focus for the next few months, along with bugfixes and balance tweaks and new bits of content (spells, etc) every week or two. As opposed to an ongoing massive focus on reinvention and broad expansion of mechanics like we have been doing; that will need to wait until after the art reskin is completed.


hmm, that's a shame, really.

One reason I stick to indie games mostly, is because they tend to NOT get hung up on graphics, as opposed to 300% of the crap that gets released at retail these days.  .....stupidly, as a result, many indie titles end up looking MUCH better than those ever do, but that's a whole other rant. 

I have to wonder though, how much of the low-ish sales really has to do with the art?  I mean, a couple of things I can think of..... firstly, Diablo 3 happened.   ......I dont even need to say anymore about THAT one.   Secondly...... I find that alot of people honestly havent the foggiest idea what this game is.   I might mention the name to someone I know, be it locally or online on AIM or a forum or whatever, and NOT EVEN ONCE have I had someone respond with something other than "What?  What's that game?  I've never heard of it."    Granted, that one seems to happen alot with indie titles.   I imagine it's not at all easy trying to advertise the things!  I would never have known about this game myself if I hadnt been checking IndieGameBlog every day as I do.  I dont think I've ever seen it mentioned anywhere else (besides Steam, that is).   Dont get me wrong, I understand the art is still a factor (all those bloody stupid "everything is brown" games seem to be  still popular, after all, for reasons I'm very happy NOT to understand), but I cant imagine it's the only factor.


So, what does this mean as far as updates go?  Are you guys gonna be holding off on these for now, or something like that?





Offline Hearteater

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For what it's worth, I just wanted to toss this link out as far as Kickstarter goes for "tips" on picking the dollar amount.  Also check out Update 19 from here which is a first hand account of funds received vs. actually funds.  Also quoting the Reddit post since it is short:

Quote
  • Decide what you think you need to complete the project
  • If you are giving away prizes, keep physical "prizes" (maps, posters, shirts, etc) value to at most 20% of the pledged amount. You'll find your estimate is wrong when you get to fulfillment, that's why we stuck to 20%.
  • Add $5000
  • Double the amount
  • Increase the amount to compensate for Amazon's fee, which should mean roughly an 11% increase
  • Round up to a multiple of $25,000

Offline Ulrox

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That is correct. Excuse me if I'm not too articulate right now. I've just taken my anti psychotic medicine. (can't sleep without them) . A main problem with avww is it's steep steep learning curve. I'm not saying valley is a bad game. I'm a huge supporter of you guys but I compare valley to a game like E.Y.E Divine Cybermancy (that name alone O_o) ... Its a game that is incredible hard to learn because it has so many different systems in place. I honestly think valley would have done better with no procedurally generated content and no overworld map, and then just one path that you have to follow.  Ever play sacrifice or giants citizen kabuto? those games were RAD, but they also didn't sell very well. The same can be said about heroes of might and magic. How come so such awesome gameplay as heroes of might and magic doesn't have various clones on the market? Instead we have skyrim and call of duty. If you want I'll beat skyrim with only one hand. I'll find a way. It's so eaaasy. Look at topsellers on steam and compare the learning curve to valley without wind :P

I remember reading an article about EA's most lucrative games. Battlefield, the sims,  fifa and then SWToR (Remembering it from my head so not 100% accurate) Battlefield is a nobrainer. The sims, I dont really want to comment :P - fifa is the same game released year after year, and then we have SWToR which is almost exclusively a wow clone. ohh I forgot another brilliant example. Planescape Torment is (by me) regarded by many as the best RPG ever made. How well do you think it sold? :P

and again, I have something like 50 hours played on avww this week. I definately dont want it to change into a game with no procedurally generated content / only one path. I'm just sadly saying that learning curve means a lot. Take my little brother. I bought him AI war. He has yet to play it at all with me... why? its hard to read the tutorial. :)

Offline Misery

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That is correct. Excuse me if I'm not too articulate right now. I've just taken my anti psychotic medicine. (can't sleep without them) . A main problem with avww is it's steep steep learning curve. I'm not saying valley is a bad game. I'm a huge supporter of you guys but I compare valley to a game like E.Y.E Divine Cybermancy (that name alone O_o) ... Its a game that is incredible hard to learn because it has so many different systems in place. I honestly think valley would have done better with no procedurally generated content and no overworld map, and then just one path that you have to follow.  Ever play sacrifice or giants citizen kabuto? those games were RAD, but they also didn't sell very well. The same can be said about heroes of might and magic. How come so such awesome gameplay as heroes of might and magic doesn't have various clones on the market? Instead we have skyrim and call of duty. If you want I'll beat skyrim with only one hand. I'll find a way. It's so eaaasy. Look at topsellers on steam and compare the learning curve to valley without wind :P

I remember reading an article about EA's most lucrative games. Battlefield, the sims,  fifa and then SWToR (Remembering it from my head so not 100% accurate) Battlefield is a nobrainer. The sims, I dont really want to comment :P - fifa is the same game released year after year, and then we have SWToR which is almost exclusively a wow clone. ohh I forgot another brilliant example. Planescape Torment is (by me) regarded by many as the best RPG ever made. How well do you think it sold? :P

and again, I have something like 50 hours played on avww this week. I definately dont want it to change into a game with no procedurally generated content / only one path. I'm just sadly saying that learning curve means a lot. Take my little brother. I bought him AI war. He has yet to play it at all with me... why? its hard to read the tutorial. :)


That, though, isnt really a problem with the game itself.   It's more of an industry problem.   Alot of games are super hyper may-as-well-play-themselves easy as heck, and WAY too many gamers are used to this.   If the game in question isnt utterly braindead, you're GOING to lose potential buyers literally "because thinking is hard".   Or because ANYTHING is hard, really.

I'm glad AVWW didn't do that kind of crap.  There's enough games out there that I could play and beat while asleep, I dont really need another one, heh.

It's not so much that the learning curve is bad;  it's that it HAS a learning curve. AKA, you have to read stuff and think about it.

Feh.   As always I miss the days of the NES and such.  Where the game ASSUMED that you read the bloody manual beforehand.   And THEN it kicked your ass into next week.    And this was the norm.   Ah, good times....

Offline x4000

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hmm, that's a shame, really.

One reason I stick to indie games mostly, is because they tend to NOT get hung up on graphics, as opposed to 300% of the crap that gets released at retail these days.  .....stupidly, as a result, many indie titles end up looking MUCH better than those ever do, but that's a whole other rant.

That's something I prefer, too, and yet we've been roasted by half of the Internet for that philosophy.  At this point we've not remotely made back the money from making the game in the first place, and every month that we just focus on free updates to the base game is a month where we lose more money.  Over ten thousand dollars of money.  So that's obviously not a viable business practice for us.

The one big thing that people keep mentioning as holding them back from buying the game is the art.  Over and over and over we hear this.  So that's what we have to address.  Similarly, in a Steam sale or similar people rarely play a game; they look at screenshots and videos and the blurb about the game, and then buy based on that when the discounts are good enough.  If our screenshots are underwhelming to people, then we fail to reach the sales that we need in order to recoup the costs of such an ambitious (for us) game.

From the start we always promised that we'd be updating this game as long as there was player support, or three months for sure at worst, and it's now been three months and the player support is not there in enough volume to sustain the kinds of updates we've been doing.  Aka, I have to lay off Josh and Erik if we keep down this path, and then the other three of us get majorly financially squeezed as well.  The company isn't in jeopardy, as I said, but we've done everything we could on the gameplay side to address all of the major deficits that people complained about.  At this point we've hit a point of diminishing returns there I think, and additionally they have garnered us almost no additional word of mouth or news coverage.  So that's not working.  Given how often the art is cited as the reason that people don't want to play the game or even try it in some cases, it seems the only rational course is to see if those people are just full of hot air or really are telling the truth.  If the latter, then we see a renaissance of the game and we move back into heavier updates and do an expansion early next year, yadda yadda yadda.

I have to wonder though, how much of the low-ish sales really has to do with the art?  I mean, a couple of things I can think of..... firstly, Diablo 3 happened.   ......I dont even need to say anymore about THAT one.   Secondly...... I find that alot of people honestly havent the foggiest idea what this game is.   I might mention the name to someone I know, be it locally or online on AIM or a forum or whatever, and NOT EVEN ONCE have I had someone respond with something other than "What?  What's that game?  I've never heard of it."    Granted, that one seems to happen alot with indie titles.   I imagine it's not at all easy trying to advertise the things!  I would never have known about this game myself if I hadnt been checking IndieGameBlog every day as I do.  I dont think I've ever seen it mentioned anywhere else (besides Steam, that is).   Dont get me wrong, I understand the art is still a factor (all those bloody stupid "everything is brown" games seem to be  still popular, after all, for reasons I'm very happy NOT to understand), but I cant imagine it's the only factor.

The art seems to have other factors, such as reviewer opinions (people really do have their opinions tainted by art they consider bad, and won't give the game as much of a chance because of it; on metacritic many of the bad reviews mention the art.  Actually, I think all of them do).  Then there's the matter that news and word of mouth really is secondary to the all-important Steam sale.  And that's where people just buy what is put in front of them on sale, if the price is right and the description/video is cool, and the screenshots look interesting.  Plus some other factors.  This is where, so far, the game has failed since Diablo 3 came around.

Some of that might still be the influence of Diablo 3 rather than anything to do with our art, but if that's the case then we simply need to move away from this game anyhow and into something that isn't competing head-to-head with Blizzard.  I tend to take a more positive view that we can salvage this with a revamped art style that will hopefully catch the media's attention in a way that our painstaking work and long hours for the last three months has not.  Tom Chick aside.

In short: I don't get to make the rules of the marketplace, but I do have to survive in them.  I don't view AVWW as dead or even dying, but I think that it is in need of a major jolt in the form of the art rework in order to hit that next level.

So, what does this mean as far as updates go?  Are you guys gonna be holding off on these for now, or something like that?

We'll be doing updates every week at least, but they will be smaller and less frequent for sure.  Once the final art style is selected, that will start being integrated immediately, for one thing.  On the other end of the spectrum, I'll be doing a new spell or some other piece of content ideally every week (or two at the outside).  We'll continue to do balance updates and think about how to make things run more smoothly and shave off the grind.  And of course bugfixes.

In terms of the things we had planned for 1.3, those are on hold, though: stuff like yet more features for citybuilding; events that randomly happen to you; etc.  Those sorts of things are the things I'm just itching to do, to be honest, but for now they have to wait.  We have to be able to pay the bills, and we're going to hit a point where we can't without layoffs unless we take different actions.

It was high time for another AI War expansion anyhow, we had originally said that would be out something like 9 months ago; so Keith is working on that.  And barring an enormous infusion of cash from kickstarter, that might have some stretch goals related to having 1.3 content coming sooner than later, I'll be working on another project that is currently TBA in September.

This isn't a Terraria situation: we aren't divided on how to proceed, we aren't out of ideas or bored with the game, we aren't halting all development on it and stopping all updates.  If you think about it, in a lot of respects the art overhaul itself is going to be one of the largest updates the game has ever seen, so we're really trying to rejuvenate things.  But in the meantime while we're trying that, we also have to have other ways to actually make some money; Erik and Josh have been proving indispensable, and I'm loathe to lose them just because I wanted to bang my head on a brick wall, so to speak.

Hope that makes sense!
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Offline x4000

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For what it's worth, I just wanted to toss this link out as far as Kickstarter goes for "tips" on picking the dollar amount.  Also check out Update 19 from here which is a first hand account of funds received vs. actually funds.  Also quoting the Reddit post since it is short:

Quote
  • Decide what you think you need to complete the project
  • If you are giving away prizes, keep physical "prizes" (maps, posters, shirts, etc) value to at most 20% of the pledged amount. You'll find your estimate is wrong when you get to fulfillment, that's why we stuck to 20%.
  • Add $5000
  • Double the amount
  • Increase the amount to compensate for Amazon's fee, which should mean roughly an 11% increase
  • Round up to a multiple of $25,000

Thanks for that!  In terms of a lot of advice, that's for completing a whole game whereas we're talking about an art revamp.  But point taken.  In terms of physical prizes, we definitely won't be doing any of that -- we're not equipped for such a thing.  We'll likely be giving away other copies of our other games, plus some other sort of exclusives that people can help design some something for the game, etc.  There will be another thread about that in the next week or two from Erik.
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Offline x4000

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That is correct. Excuse me if I'm not too articulate right now. I've just taken my anti psychotic medicine. (can't sleep without them) . A main problem with avww is it's steep steep learning curve. I'm not saying valley is a bad game. I'm a huge supporter of you guys but I compare valley to a game like E.Y.E Divine Cybermancy (that name alone O_o) ... Its a game that is incredible hard to learn because it has so many different systems in place. I honestly think valley would have done better with no procedurally generated content and no overworld map, and then just one path that you have to follow.  Ever play sacrifice or giants citizen kabuto? those games were RAD, but they also didn't sell very well. The same can be said about heroes of might and magic. How come so such awesome gameplay as heroes of might and magic doesn't have various clones on the market? Instead we have skyrim and call of duty. If you want I'll beat skyrim with only one hand. I'll find a way. It's so eaaasy. Look at topsellers on steam and compare the learning curve to valley without wind :P

I don't think the learning curve is relevant at all.  The game isn't one where loads of people are trying the demo and then giving up on it.  Our demo conversion rate on Steam is 12.6% lifetime at the moment, and I think that holds up with other sources of the demo anecdotally rather than based on hard numbers.  To put that in context: average demo conversion rates that are good are generally considered 2-3%.  So out of the people who get to trying the demo, our conversion rate is excellent -- not quite as excellent as AI War, which sits at a whopping 16% lifetime on Steam, but still really good by industry standards.

If we were seeing a really low conversion rate, or a really low rate of people completing the various achievements, then that would be one thing.  But the percentage of people who played it at least for a few hours based on achievements unlocked is actually comparing really favorable to other games of this general genre.

Going along with that, if we did a linear non-procedural world that had no world map and basically was just a straight Metroidvania clone, that would not have been newsworthy and would not have gotten many people's attention.  The fact that this game is actually something different is a key selling point.  And the fact that we've had so much coverage and interest from those parties that have heard about it really reinforces that.

I remember reading an article about EA's most lucrative games. Battlefield, the sims,  fifa and then SWToR (Remembering it from my head so not 100% accurate) Battlefield is a nobrainer. The sims, I dont really want to comment :P - fifa is the same game released year after year, and then we have SWToR which is almost exclusively a wow clone. ohh I forgot another brilliant example. Planescape Torment is (by me) regarded by many as the best RPG ever made. How well do you think it sold? :P

You're comparing apples to oranges, though.  We don't need sales on an EA level to break even or make a profit.  We don't even need Minecraft or Terraria levels of sales, not remotely.  Few indies do need that; though of course it would be nice to have that sort of warchest security.  But dumbing down games for the masses is the province of AAA -- they deliver the incredible polish and ease of play, while indies deliver the experimental, the out-there, the niche.  It is possible to make a very niche game and make well over a million dollars.  I know lots of indies who have done so, and I'm not that far off myself from that with AI War.  Which is a thousand times more inaccessible than this game.

and again, I have something like 50 hours played on avww this week. I definately dont want it to change into a game with no procedurally generated content / only one path. I'm just sadly saying that learning curve means a lot. Take my little brother. I bought him AI war. He has yet to play it at all with me... why? its hard to read the tutorial. :)

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're using anecdotal evidence about a few specific people in cases where the game was bought for them and they then didn't play it.  I'm talking about people not trying the demo and not buying it at all.  Aka, looking at the screenshots and scurrying away during a Steam sale, and otherwise just generally being unaware of its existence.  The interesting thing about the Internet is how many people there are that buy games there.  Steam has well over 35 million registered users last I checked, and it's always growing.  And that's just Steam.  Nine in ten people could reject this or any game (and likely do), and that game could still have profits in the tens of millions of dollars.  Ninety-nine in a hundred people can reject it, and you can still have millions of dollars of profit.

That's the power of having such a massive potential audience pool.  And the way we typically reach them is through Steam sales.  But at a Steam sale, they look at -- screenshots and video.  The video is good, I think, except for the art being shown in it.  So many more people move on than I would prefer.

Having had very divided press about the game also doesn't help, and is something that ideally we could get some re-reviews on with all the changes between 1.0 and what will be 2.0 with the new art and all the changes from 1.1 and 1.2 and whatever we do between now and the art being done.  But we've been unable to attract press attention without doing something drastic like the art overhaul.  So... time to get drastic.
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