Author Topic: [FILLED] Looking for artist(s) to develop new style for A Valley Without Wind.  (Read 159137 times)

Offline Wanderer

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If people fuss when a game lacks depth, and fuss when a game's art isn't what they want, and fuss when the developers of a deep game seek funding to improve the art, then I think we're already in an situation that is not winnable regardless of our competence level or what we do :)
It's a perception of expectation.  *shrugs*  People need to remember you get what you pay for.  I'm sorry, but that's the simple truth FAR too many people (not the majority of forumites) are forgetting.  This isn't a $65 XBox game.  It's something we bought on Steam (or direct), probably on sale, for the price of lunch.  Maybe two lunches if you're on the cheap.  Some of it comes down to used game purchases too.  Every used game that went up for sale was originally purchased at the original price.  That we're buying used doesn't discount the original purchase point/recovery.  However, it skews the vision.  I paid $25 for this amazing game and what the hell, man?!  Um, seriously?  Whateva.

So, in my personal opinion... and one that doesn't mind the art style so I'm in full disclosure... if you liked the game but hated the art cough up the same amount you paid for at the purchase point to the kickstarter and for twice the price, you'll get twice the game.  *shrugs* 

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Hmm, so maybe that's what it feels like when you scout a homeworld and see 3 core raid engines and an eye...
No comment.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Paul.  I don't think, presented well, this will in any way hurt Arcen.  Arcen (well, Chris) has never claimed to be big budget or well supported.  I believe most of the community out there will respond well to a simple idea of: "We made what we could with what we had, and it's pretty good in general.  If you want more, help us out.  Here, donate the price of a game (or two) and we'll even GIVE you a copy."  Even if it doesn't, I doubt it will create negative publicity.  They're doing their best, and they're willing to do all the legwork to make it happen. 

Given the fact that you could download a demo before posting your money noone out there can say they even got surprised by 'fake box artwork' or whatever... which is something I HAVE dealt with... and that's a whole different problem.  I can't see a negative to this unless it's a pure gut reaction by the public... in which case they need a damned wake up call anyway if they can't put it together. 

To misquote:  "You've got to remember that these are just simple anonymous. These are people of the internet. The common clay of the new Electronic Frontier. You know... morons and trolls."
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Coppermantis

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I have to agree. I wouldn't think that anyone should react negatively to an indie company needing money to satisfy a need that apparently a lot of customers have. That said, a lot of people on the internet are crazy hotheads but a few crazed fools won't be that bad for Arcen, I think.
I can already tell this is going to be a roller coaster ride of disappointment.

Offline Shardz

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I think all this will work out as both a profitable and integral journey. From the sound of it, Chris has the game plan almost worked out to the last nickel as to the resources he'll need and has the path set on how to get there.  Let's not speculate on failure before we start because I think people might be surprised to learn something different in this case.

We already know that Arcen has the core brain power to program some relatively amazing software. We have already seen the superb support thus far for all their titles and they aren't a fly-by-night operation, by any means. It's been said by nearly everyone, myself included, that there is something to like about the project in one way or another. I really can't see this trek not being an option at this point now that the gears are in motion and the cat's out of the bag...doing cat stuff somewhere.

Most of us fans who have been around a few years love Arcen because they realize what their strengths and weaknesses are and don't mind discussing that with the community in a detailed constructive fashion. Then momentum is built up, resources are gathered, and big things start to happen. This is the way it's always gone and will go again this time around...albeit, with some extra help!

All we can do now is jump on the support wagon and see where that badboy takes us, but this is an answer to a plea sent by a large consensus that wanted change and they got it.  Pretty impressive stuff if you ask me.

 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 11:55:15 pm by Shardz »

Offline Nanashi

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@Bluddy & Co: I see. That's quite a shame - most of what I know about old game coding and performance does come from 8 years ago, so I have to admit that it's taking me awhile to wrap my head around this new information. The sad bit is that I personally prefer 2D games to 3D ones, but sprites are fundamentally a really inefficient way of doing animations.

Having 2 identical sized images (monocolour and truecolour) take up exactly the same amount of RAM sounds a bit stupid since limited palettes do help with innate PNG compression (Since DEFLATE is string-based). If only there was a way to bypass the step for whatever is converting the PNGs into completely re-rendering in 24/48 bit colour...

It actually makes me wonder if AVWW would have worked better in pseudo-3D.

I'm really looking forward to what the studios manage to do - assuming they get funded, it's a really good thing that they eventually managed to agree on payment on a per piece basis (I personally don't think working hours is the best scheme for commissioning art).

Art is inherently a subjective thing - but in practice, it tends to work almost exactly like the visual presentation of food (not exactly though - Art is more of a food wrapper than the actual food). It doesn't have to look appetizing, but it helps to get people to eat it. The only thing I could pseudo-objectively label as "Bad art" is when the look of the food actually detracts from the eating experience in a negative fashion (such as if you dye it with blue food coloring). It's still an important aspect to games though (as games are a multimedia experience). Dwarf Fortress is enjoyable, but take the art and music away from Bastion and render it with ASCII and I doubt it'd have had as much attention.

As a result, I kind of have the philosophy that if you dislike a game's art, it's neat to be able to mod it to suit your own preferences (sort of like having free use of condiments or just rearranging the presentation of the food yourself.) - Take Morrowind for example; it has pretty craptacular art, but that's okay because the gameplay is there and people that don't like it will eventually mod it (and build a mod db) to suit their purposes - and it lets the developers just concentrate on making their game, while excusing them from liability from all of the inevitable less-salubrious mods that follow. This would be easier if AVWW had a larger player base of art modders though.

Mr Chris Park's motivation seems a bit disturbing to me though (And for the record, I think he did a really good job considering the resources and time at hand. It's not something I could do.) - is vindication a healthy motive? I got the impression of a deep-seated feeling of resentment against game art critics when I read his last post, and maybe a hint of malice. But it's not possible to control how other people think and feel (and yes, they can seem a bit irresponsible at times because it's very easy to be negative and hurt other people without getting hurt yourself) - so getting resentful about it is probably a waste of time.

It might just be better to keep trying to make AVWW a better game by focusing on your core strengths - it works for DayZ (ARMA 2 gets a lot of criticism for ugly textures, but the success of that mod was not so much about advertising, but more about word-of-mouth)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 01:13:20 am by Nanashi »

Offline doubtful

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a few thoughts
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2012, 05:09:42 am »
I would just like to say that Arcen has my support in whatever you ultimately choose to do regarding this matter.

I feel that, while AVWW's art style is a bit unorthodox, it fits quite well with the game's concept: that of the amalgamation of a dozen  different eras and places.

The only significant flaws I find with the art is that which has already been said:

1) Some of the animations--namely the rather wooden (single frame?) spellcasting animations--are a bit rough around the edges, and allocating some of the finite space for frames toward that might be in order.  Although as I understand it, this would probably require delving back into the original stock art and reprocessing/rendering it all over again and isn't strictly necessary.

2) The backgrounds in some locations (Swamp!) are bit busy or lack contrast necessary to be able to easily recognize terrain vs background vs generated objects.  As previously suggested, lowering color saturation or otherwise increasing the contrast between the "important" stuff and the background stuff might be helpful!

3) Something I have noticed, which may or may not  be my eyes, my monitor, or my graphics card, is that the game sort of "blurs out" things in the background any time the screen is panning and it's a bit disorienting and frankly kind of painful on my eyes.  I'm not sure if this is an artifact of the game engine or what, though.

At any rate, I would happily chip in on a kickstarter to improve/tweak/whatever the  game's art, if that's genuinely what Mr. Park, et al., want.  But I sense frustration and other negativity in his words as well, and it pains me to think that he may be compromising his principles for the sake of placating a few naysayers who may ultimately never be pleased with what this unusual (and frankly, wonderful) game is trying to be.

Chris, if you're reading this, I think in making any decision(s) about this whole mess, you should look at it strictly in terms of a business venture and nothing more.  Don't let people get under your skin.  If you think you  can generate more revenue/sales by doing this, awesome, give it a shot! But don't do this just to try and deflect the whining of unappreciative jerks who belong to this (sadly, to a point, my) "entitlement" generation.

I haven't been a fan of your games nearly as long as most of this community, but I have been simply amazed at how connected you and your team are with the community and how conscious you are of what we want and how willing you are to deliver.  And just in few weeks since I purchased AVWW, when it first released on Steam,  I have watched this game transform over and over into something greater and more refined.  I barely "know" you guys, and I'm already in love.

A Valley Without Wind is going places at a pace I'd never have dreamed possible, and if you'd rather leave the art as it is, and leave to us, your loyal fans, a Valley without Whiners, I am totally okay with that. :)

Offline MouldyK

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Well looking at the most-funded games on Kickstarter (http://www.kickstarter.com/discover/categories/games/most-funded?ref=more#p1), it seems like there are a lot of irregular things on there, so it's hard to tell which way it will go based on the amount what have raised $100,000+ and reached their target. Although I don't think it will be impossible with:

- The right pitch noting the reasons for the change and the cost. (I mean Leasure Suit Larry's FAQ asks why they need money for a game announced back in October and why they needed $100,000 more than Double Fine needed in the first place)
- The right incentives for people to give money. (maybe some AI War thrown into some Pledges, the already-cheap-soundtrack
- Some indie sites or other sites (ones which said the art might not be for everyone) advertising it.


In a numbers way, to raise $100,000 in like 30 days, it would need:

- 6,666.67 backers pledging $15 at least (the game's retail price).
- $3,333.34 a day on average.
- 222 or 223 backers per day on average paying $15 or more.
- Like 9 or 10 people pledging at least $15 an hour.


...I make it sound easy. :P

Plus, AVWW has something a lot of other projects don't have: A demo. xD
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 06:01:49 am by MouldyK »

Offline eRe4s3r

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I don't think a DEMO is a plus. Kickstarter sells hope ;p Most kickstarters are fully based on hope, most don't even have a design document before starting a kickstart. now THAT is absurd... but i am blabbering...
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Offline Bluddy

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I don't think a DEMO is a plus. Kickstarter sells hope ;p Most kickstarters are fully based on hope, most don't even have a design document before starting a kickstart. now THAT is absurd... but i am blabbering...

I think there's some truth to that. So long as a game is a promise or an idea, it has no limits -- it fills up your imagination with potential. Once there's an actual product, the reality sinks in, and you start to find flaws. It's much less exciting to fund something that's real, even though it's a more sound business decision.

Offline Hearteater

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I don't know, I looked at those Megaman WIP textures for AVWW and that filled me with hope.  I image brand new art from a professional studio would be at least as powerful, if not significantly more so.

Offline zebramatt

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I'm a big fan of Arcen and of Valley but the art totally jars with me. I'd definitely contribute here!

Offline x4000

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Thanks for all the thoughts, folks.  My responses, in no particular order:

1. Yes, something like this is uncommon.  That's kind of the status quo around here, though, right?  We've already seen some positive press leaking out about this and we haven't even announced anything yet or shown the art.

2. Yes, I agree that kickstarter sells hope.  I also think that a lot of those hopes are going to be horribly dashed in the next year or two, and I don't know what will happen to kickstarter then.  No amount of awesomeness can live up to the expectations that some people have for the projects they fund.  That's why I want to be so concrete about things here; because I have zero desire to be part of the fallout that happens when the kickstarter bubble bursts.

3. Contrary to how it might seem with my tossing a few figures around, I don't yet have this worked out to the penny as to what this will cost.  The reason is simple: we have yet to even select our final studio or style yet.  Each studio charges a different rate, and each studio has a different style and takes different amounts of time to complete work of different styles (and possibly quality).  Quadrupling the cost is something I mentioned because that's the high end of what my gut tells me is sustainable, and the $100k figure is also a rough ballpark "is it bigger than a breadbox" sort of figure.

4. If this does make the game a lot more attractive to folks, then I expect this will also have a very positive impact on our sales of the game.  Meaning that even if our costs were worst-case 4x higher per enemy and such, and even if $100k was only enough to do the revamp but not go much further than that, then we should be able to cover the difference.  Not least of which because then none of my time will be taken up on working on art myself, so I'll have more time to dedicate to other aspects of this or other projects.

5. The solubility of Arcen really isn't an issue here.  We aren't spending big money on this (a few thousand), nor are we going to be directly making money off the kickstarter itself (that all goes right back into the project in terms of the art budget).  So at worst this wastes some of my time and we come out with a better-looking game (or a failed kickstarter but some interesting publicity, I guess), while at best we come out with a game that a lot more people find acceptable to buy and play thanks to the new art style.  Which in turn would give us more than enough resources to continue to do a bunch of more stuff in the new style.

6. Also bear in mind that enemies and buildings and such aren't our only expense, nor our largest.  For one thing, there has to be good loot and such, and thus far I think I've been doing a largely quite-good job with the particle effects, with a few exceptions.  Those pieces of art get subtracted out of the 4k pieces that have been mentioned.  And the cost of doing new spells that are particle or projectile-based won't increase at all with this sort of new art style, I wouldn't think.

7. As to the question of how many frames there will be, that all depends.  If we go with an articulated sprite style, then there won't be any frames in the classic sense, but rather a variety of body parts that get moved around in a puppet-like fashion to create extremely smooth animations.  If we go with a pixelart style, then the framecount will massively drop overall, rather than rise, but we'll also have some things like probably standing animations and such rather than just burning 21 frames on running and then doing 1 frame for everything else.  These details remain to be worked out, and I'm working it out in different ways with each of the studios to explore what is possible given their talents and our desire for "better," whatever that means.

8. At the present, if I were to do a kickstarter it would be exactly one of those "high hopes" sort of things, because you haven't seen any art and all there is is the vague promise of something that costs more to make but must surely look a lot better.  That's what this initial R&D period is about, is taking those vague hopes and turning them into a concrete "this is what it would look like."  AND "this is what it would cost."

9. As I already noted, this won't impact our plans for AVWW content in general, or AI War's next expansion, in any way.  There are quite a few substantial revenue sources remaining for us in the remainder of 2012, and none of them have to do with this kickstarter business, which is really an exploratory side venture.  Don't fund this kickstarter because you think it will help us stay afloat; fund it if you want the new art, whatever your motivations are for that.

10. I definitely won't be forgetting to talk about the game itself, or our plans or what we have going on.  Obviously with 1.104 right now there are some exciting things going on, but prior to doing our kickstarter I intend to have some features that are even more exciting out the door in at least beta form.  I finally had some epiphanies on a few things that are missing from the actual gameplay itself (sod the art) last night, and I know in general what to do in order to get the first iterations of that off the ground.  As always, on our own dime of course.

11. Beyond even these things I think there will be more to do, of course -- isn't there always?  But things like new terrain generation or new mission types or whatever generally don't require as much art as they do programming.

12. In terms of getting to see revamped art samples, here is one that I'll share with you.  The urban sniper balloon enemy (which is completely un-animated in the game at the moment) has been attached, as well as a gif file of its prospective replacement from a studio we'll call K.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2012, 09:59:08 am by x4000 »
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Offline mrhanman

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 :o

So... where do I put my money?

Offline x4000

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My hope is to have things to a point where we can start the kickstarter around July 9th or 10th, but that will depend on a lot of other factors to do with the various studios.  Bear in mind there's still a lot more work to do with all three of them, but hopefully there will be a lot more samples to share this week in multiple styles. :)
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Offline madcow

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Those mockups look really cool, can't wait to see what the other studios come up with as well.

Are you going to decide on a style before putting up the kickstarter?

Offline zebramatt

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@madcow:

Short answer is yes.

Long answer is...

Quote
Next Steps After This Project
Once an art style is selected, the next step will be to work with that artist to determine what the likely total project cost would be to convert the entire existing game over to that style.  Not to mention the timeframe.  My expectation is that multiple artists will be needed, ultimately, so then the next challenge will be seeing if we can find multiple people who can work in that style.

At that point I'll have a more accurate idea of exactly what the revision costs as well as the ongoing-development costs of the new art style would be (although I already have a pretty decent idea, having worked with 2D, 3D, and pixel artists on other projects in the past).

With those cost figures in hand, plus an actual visual prototype that people can see and look at, the next step will most likely be a kickstarter.  It's possible that a discount sale from our game could give us enough of a windfall to fund the entire thing ourselves directly (this sort of thing has certainly happened to us before), but we already have a fulltime staff of 5 and so there's a limit to how much extra financial burden we can take on even if we hit another major windfall this summer.  Most of our general budget goes toward expanding the game itself, which is what keeps bringing in new players the most reliably at the moment.