Author Topic: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?  (Read 7802 times)

Offline TechSY730

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Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« on: May 23, 2012, 04:43:12 pm »
In the recent version 1.029, enemy melee is basically busted. (A Valley Without Melee :P)
Although this does lead to some hilarious stuff like rhinos not doing anything and exploding homing shots not exploding until they die, it gave a very interesting experiance about what combat it like without everything in the world getting a free, passive melee.

Copied from the discussion about that version.

Ok, I noticed one bug pretty quickly,

All types of "seeker" projectiles dont seem to actually be registering collisions with the character.   They do no damage at all and just tend to stick to the character.   Small fairies which usually pop upon contact with a shield dont do that either.   I can hit them all with projectiles just fine though.

EDIT:  Some of them are like ALMOST colliding but then bugging out, like the purple.... er..... whatever those are that the landspeeder fires, or the shots from the Gazebos, they sorta spaz out upon contact with the character and jerk off to the side, and then continue moving.
Oh, I wanted to comment on this. I'm not sure what's causing it, but it's happening with a whole range of creatures. It's intermittent and seems to just turn off their collision damage entirely - they aren't breaking through boxes, for example. I was able to stand on the Overlord's head with no ill effects.

And it is fantastic. It makes a stellar difference to the game to not have to deal with stuff like brushing a skelebot and going flying across the screen, and taking a bazillion damage and it brings the benefit of being close to an enemy more in line with the benefit of being far away, which is a great change as far as I'm concerned.

Obviously something is actually broken here, but I'd love if this could be investigated as an avenue for improving the game in general. It just makes such a great difference.

I agree. Reviewing what should and shouldn't have a passive melee on contact (as opposed to an explicit, active melee attack) could most certainly use massive reviewing.

Stuff that you would expect to hurt by merely touching it should have a passive melee (like balls of fire or balls of lightning or stuff like that). However, this is the minority of enemies. Most enemies would logically have an active melee. Like take for example, a skelebot or a rhino. Would merely touching a skelebot or a rhino that isn't trying to melee you logically hurt you? No, their damage comes from them trying to stab/whack/whatever you. Thus, it stands to reason that they shouldn't get "free" melee, but rather have to do something to do it (which implies an animation, which may imply a delay, and most certainly implies a hitbox (like instead of all around, only their hand or their front or something can deal melee) which means you can "sneak behind it" and get some hits before they get a chance to turn around and then melee you, and finally implies that their "global cooldown" is hit (no meleeing and firing a projectile on the same frame, just like players can't))
As a counter example, what about an explosion esper (that ball of fire) that is not actively trying to ram into you, would touching it logically hurt? Yes. As a general rule, fire hurts when you touch it, whether that flame is actively "out to get you" or not. Thus, it makes sense that they get a "free", passive melee attack.

Hmm, I think this is a good balance overhaul suggestion for mantis.

EDIT: Actually, this would be better as a new forum topic.

I think this highlighted how massive the impact to the feel of combat that giving every enemy type a passive melee made.

As mentioned in the post I made, I suggested splitting enemy melee into active and passive categories, where passive melee the enemy gets for "free" without having to try to use it and without having any cooldown to its other abilities (basically, the way it is supposed to work now), and an active melee, which requires explicit action from the enemy, which implies having at least some cooldown to its other abilities and gives the possibility of missing (basically, how player "melee" works)

Any other ideas?

EDIT: Sorry, missed Chris' response in the original thread before I posted this.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 04:44:55 pm by techsy730 »

Offline x4000

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2012, 04:50:20 pm »
My thoughts:

In terms of the passive melee argument -- I'm not much inclined to it.  It's pretty standard for metroidvania games and platformer games AND shumps that if you collide with any enemy you take damage.  There are exceptions with specific kinds of enemies you can jump on top of or ride on or similar (and that's true here also), but the general rule is that touching enemies = bad.  Does anyone have a single example of another game in these genres that doesn't use that rule?  I can't think of anything, from Megaman to Zelda II to Castlevania to Tyrian to Mario to Sonic.
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Offline yllamana

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2012, 12:30:31 am »
I don't think AVWW really has the pace of a typical platformer. It tends to be much slower and more strategic.

That aside, I think I can put in pretty simple terms why I like the idea of a change to the "melee" mechanics. Right now, touching an enemy is far and away the most dangerous thing in the entire game - it does far more damage and it often launches you across the screen, possibly causing you to collide with more enemies. Even touching a typical ranged enemy will usually do far more damage than getting hit by its shots.

The problem I have with this is the style of play it promotes. In a nutshell - you're already rewarded for being far away from enemies. Most of them move pretty predictably, your shots tend to be pretty big and chunky and their targeting tends to be quite naive, so as long as you're at range you have a huge leg up over them. This leads to you ideally sitting at standoff range plinking away and it's honestly not very interesting.

A much more fun way to play is being more active - jumping around and between enemies, using close-ranged spells when the opportunity presents itself (full disclosure: my favourite spell is Death Touch), and generally mixing it up. You point to other platformers, but I'll say it's really rare for a platformer to reward you for hiding as far away as possible, especially to the extent that you're frequently best off not being able to see the enemy you're fighting at all. AVWW goes even further than a typical platformer in that it actually punishes you more for touching an enemy than it does for being hit by a shot.

I don't share techsy's problem with the attack animations per se - I'm pretty okay with melee enemies, for instance, dealing damage on contact, and to a lesser extent I'm okay with that for all enemies, though it's worth noting that I think attack animations could be a great way to go - I just feel like the risk vs reward is out of whack in a way that promotes the least interesting methods of play.

Offline Misery

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2012, 02:19:35 am »
I don't think AVWW really has the pace of a typical platformer. It tends to be much slower and more strategic.

That aside, I think I can put in pretty simple terms why I like the idea of a change to the "melee" mechanics. Right now, touching an enemy is far and away the most dangerous thing in the entire game - it does far more damage and it often launches you across the screen, possibly causing you to collide with more enemies. Even touching a typical ranged enemy will usually do far more damage than getting hit by its shots.

The problem I have with this is the style of play it promotes. In a nutshell - you're already rewarded for being far away from enemies. Most of them move pretty predictably, your shots tend to be pretty big and chunky and their targeting tends to be quite naive, so as long as you're at range you have a huge leg up over them. This leads to you ideally sitting at standoff range plinking away and it's honestly not very interesting.

A much more fun way to play is being more active - jumping around and between enemies, using close-ranged spells when the opportunity presents itself (full disclosure: my favourite spell is Death Touch), and generally mixing it up. You point to other platformers, but I'll say it's really rare for a platformer to reward you for hiding as far away as possible, especially to the extent that you're frequently best off not being able to see the enemy you're fighting at all. AVWW goes even further than a typical platformer in that it actually punishes you more for touching an enemy than it does for being hit by a shot.

I don't share techsy's problem with the attack animations per se - I'm pretty okay with melee enemies, for instance, dealing damage on contact, and to a lesser extent I'm okay with that for all enemies, though it's worth noting that I think attack animations could be a great way to go - I just feel like the risk vs reward is out of whack in a way that promotes the least interesting methods of play.

Idiot browser.... posting this a second time here....


Anyway, part of the reason why it's easier to sit far away and snipe is the simplicity of some enemy patterns;  things that just shoot a basic straight, aimed shot at you are generally always going to be among the easiest foes.   Proven by shmups, over and over.

I'd personally like to see some more variety in basic enemy patterns, as far as the actual "bullets" go.   Usually it's straight shots, or seekers, and that's it.   Now obviously it'd not be good to have singular foes filling the screen with flaming doom, but even smaller, varied patterns of 3 or 4 shots at once can add alot.  Or however many.   


Even with that being the case though, alot of the "sit far away and snipe" is still up to the player.  I'm impatient and aggressive, so I tend to dash at things and smack them with Ice Burst or something of that nature.   It works well enough and is often actually more effective than ranged bolts.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 02:23:27 am by Misery »

Offline yllamana

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2012, 03:16:23 am »
Idiot browser.... posting this a second time here....


Anyway, part of the reason why it's easier to sit far away and snipe is the simplicity of some enemy patterns;  things that just shoot a basic straight, aimed shot at you are generally always going to be among the easiest foes.   Proven by shmups, over and over.

I'd personally like to see some more variety in basic enemy patterns, as far as the actual "bullets" go.   Usually it's straight shots, or seekers, and that's it.   Now obviously it'd not be good to have singular foes filling the screen with flaming doom, but even smaller, varied patterns of 3 or 4 shots at once can add alot.  Or however many.   


Even with that being the case though, alot of the "sit far away and snipe" is still up to the player.  I'm impatient and aggressive, so I tend to dash at things and smack them with Ice Burst or something of that nature.   It works well enough and is often actually more effective than ranged bolts.
Well, sure. The player can always do what they want, but ultimately whether that playstyle is supported and how much is down to the design of the game. Like I said, Death Touch is my favourite spell. That doesn't mean that I'm not harming my chances of winning (including ultimately potentially making the game less fun by myself by attempting to use something that the game just doesn't support) by playing that way.

I don't personally see how toning down the melee damage (at least on ostensibly ranged enemies) or changing its mechanics entirely could be anything but good for the game as it stands. Trying to rush through enemies without fighting them would still be more dangerous than fighting because you end up surrounded and facing attacks from all directions. Flying past everything with Scroll of Bat would still be just as risky as it is now (ie. not at all).

The major gameplay impact of the current mechanics is to promote staying far away from the enemies and sniping at them with long-ranged attacks, which just isn't all that interesting. Here we are at bubble-popping again: punching a dude is way more fun than plinking away from long range in this game, because it has a lot more judgment and timing to it. I think the plinking away could be made better, too, but in raw bubble-popping terms punching a dude is just more fun, but the melee mechanics very heavily discourage it.

Consider that if you accidentally touch an enemy once before you punch it to death then you're probably down 4-6 enemies' worth of health. Ouch. And you might be flung across the room besides.

Offline Misery

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2012, 04:05:21 am »
Idiot browser.... posting this a second time here....


Anyway, part of the reason why it's easier to sit far away and snipe is the simplicity of some enemy patterns;  things that just shoot a basic straight, aimed shot at you are generally always going to be among the easiest foes.   Proven by shmups, over and over.

I'd personally like to see some more variety in basic enemy patterns, as far as the actual "bullets" go.   Usually it's straight shots, or seekers, and that's it.   Now obviously it'd not be good to have singular foes filling the screen with flaming doom, but even smaller, varied patterns of 3 or 4 shots at once can add alot.  Or however many.   


Even with that being the case though, alot of the "sit far away and snipe" is still up to the player.  I'm impatient and aggressive, so I tend to dash at things and smack them with Ice Burst or something of that nature.   It works well enough and is often actually more effective than ranged bolts.
Well, sure. The player can always do what they want, but ultimately whether that playstyle is supported and how much is down to the design of the game. Like I said, Death Touch is my favourite spell. That doesn't mean that I'm not harming my chances of winning (including ultimately potentially making the game less fun by myself by attempting to use something that the game just doesn't support) by playing that way.

I don't personally see how toning down the melee damage (at least on ostensibly ranged enemies) or changing its mechanics entirely could be anything but good for the game as it stands. Trying to rush through enemies without fighting them would still be more dangerous than fighting because you end up surrounded and facing attacks from all directions. Flying past everything with Scroll of Bat would still be just as risky as it is now (ie. not at all).

The major gameplay impact of the current mechanics is to promote staying far away from the enemies and sniping at them with long-ranged attacks, which just isn't all that interesting. Here we are at bubble-popping again: punching a dude is way more fun than plinking away from long range in this game, because it has a lot more judgment and timing to it. I think the plinking away could be made better, too, but in raw bubble-popping terms punching a dude is just more fun, but the melee mechanics very heavily discourage it.

Consider that if you accidentally touch an enemy once before you punch it to death then you're probably down 4-6 enemies' worth of health. Ouch. And you might be flung across the room besides.


*shrugs*   I just make sure not to touch them, hehe.   I very rarely run into an enemy if I'm NOT dashing.   Or falling, definitely fallen on enemies before, usually in bloody caves since the game is absolutely obsessed with vertical-as-heck caverns.   But in actual combat, most enemies are fairly easy to get up close to without being at risk of touching them.


Still, removing the "player cant run through them" part of the melee, at the very least, would be a bad idea.  If they change the melee mechanics, THAT needs to stay in place.   Regardless of the enemy type you should not be able to run through it.  As long as that aspect isnt changed, I dont actually care TOO much.


Not to mention..... most enemies really dont do much melee damage ANYWAY.  At least, not anything I've run into (hero difficulty).  The only troublesome ones in that regard are the accursed raptors, and that's because they sorta sit on your head.   The others (aka, things that arent raptors, bulls, rhinos, and whatnot).... well, even if they HAVE heavy melee damage, I'm all for keeping it that way, since MOST of them wont make an active attempt at running into you;  melee damage against that type is almost always the player's fault entirely.     In that case.... the player needs to learn not to smack into them.

Frankly, in a game that tends to be about dodging tons of stuff thrown at the player, using melee skills on an enemy effectively SHOULD be harder than firing from afar.  This is probably also why some of the melee spells are so ridiculously strong.   If the melee is toned down (in terms of either damage level, OR in terms of making less enemies able to do it) to make it less threatening from enemies..... then THOSE spells also need to be toned down (alot) to retain balance.  They're strong BECAUSE of the risk involved.


At the same time, I can understand the idea of being able to jump on SOME things without taking damage;  bulls and rhinos maybe (though that might honestly make them a little too easy, and they're not exactly all that difficult to start with), and definitely something like the Urban Whatsits, those tank things, that would make sense.   



The whole thing though sounds like it'd be extremely annoying to do though in terms of balancing it out. 

Offline zebramatt

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 04:53:41 am »
At the very most, I'd support toning down some enemies' melee attacks a little here and there, for balance.

In general, I think being able to hug enemies breaks the game - but that might just be me!

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2012, 09:15:27 am »
Sorry, a little clarification.

I was not proposing that we should be able to walk through enemies, that would be silly. ;D

Also, I am not proposing that most enemies shouldn't try to "swat you away" or try to stab you when you get too close. They should. I was proposing that they shouldn't get a full body melee attack for free just because a player touched them, even if you barely grazed their backside. That doesn't mean that if you do touch an area that their melee's hitbox doesn't cover, they are helpless. Like if you do manage to "poke" them on the back, they would turn around and then poke/swat/stab you back.
This would take a bit of balancing to ensure that it isn't too easy to cheese though.

Offline LintMan

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2012, 11:48:54 am »
Does anyone have a single example of another game in these genres that doesn't use that rule?  I can't think of anything, from Megaman to Zelda II to Castlevania to Tyrian to Mario to Sonic.

Personally, I never much liked console platformers.  Actually, I actively dislike them.   I do quite like AVWW though, which is its own thing.  Using console platformers as a guiding light at this point is rather inauspicious, to me.  AVWW doesn't need to follow the standard platformer tropes.

As for the ideas here, I think it's worth forther discussion.  Making melee/close combat more feasible would add more spice/variety to the combat.

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2012, 05:34:57 pm »
Does anyone have a single example of another game in these genres that doesn't use that rule?  I can't think of anything, from Megaman to Zelda II to Castlevania to Tyrian to Mario to Sonic.

Personally, I never much liked console platformers.  Actually, I actively dislike them.   I do quite like AVWW though, which is its own thing.  Using console platformers as a guiding light at this point is rather inauspicious, to me.  AVWW doesn't need to follow the standard platformer tropes.

As for the ideas here, I think it's worth forther discussion.  Making melee/close combat more feasible would add more spice/variety to the combat.

I'd just like to second that. The things I like about AVWW are exactly the things which make it differ from console platformers, for which I have little use. While on this particular topic I have no strong inclination one way or another, I would definitely say that "because that's how console platformers do it" is a poor justification for anything.

Offline timesend

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2012, 05:40:32 pm »
I would like to see enemies which force you to get close, like an aura which disperses attacks, it would give meaning to the melee spells which are almost defunct, of course these foes should have no melee damage, sort of like the crafts in ai war which can only be shot within a certain distance. These foes obviously should do no melee damage as otherwise they would be broken.
Id love to see gameplay which forces you to fight at close ranges. To not overwhelm new players they should only spawn in continent 2. Thus we wouldn't need to worry about conforming to the traditional rules. Perhaps even a slow introduction so the first ones which spawn only take 50 percent reduced ranged damage, then you kill 10 and the real one spawns. Thus introducing people to the idea. 

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2012, 05:42:56 pm »
I would like to see enemies which force you to get close, like an aura which disperses attacks
The elite version of the dust storm has a sort of inverse gravity well effect that pushes shots away.  Hitting it takes a bit of effort :)
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Offline LayZboy

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2012, 06:46:56 pm »
Does anyone have a single example of another game in these genres that doesn't use that rule?  I can't think of anything, from Megaman to Zelda II to Castlevania to Tyrian to Mario to Sonic.

Personally, I never much liked console platformers.  Actually, I actively dislike them.   I do quite like AVWW though, which is its own thing.  Using console platformers as a guiding light at this point is rather inauspicious, to me.  AVWW doesn't need to follow the standard platformer tropes.

As for the ideas here, I think it's worth forther discussion.  Making melee/close combat more feasible would add more spice/variety to the combat.

I'd just like to second that. The things I like about AVWW are exactly the things which make it differ from console platformers, for which I have little use. While on this particular topic I have no strong inclination one way or another, I would definitely say that "because that's how console platformers do it" is a poor justification for anything.

Well how about, it just make sense that a ranged attacking monster is not that good at physical attacks? At least compared to Melee specific ones.

Offline Zozma

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2012, 07:17:17 pm »
I'm all for the classical platformer "touch of death." I think it'd be cool if some enemies have some sort of lunging/dashing/jumping way to get into touch of death range, but at the same time I don't think the game is in any desperate need of that mechanic.

Offline darkchair

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2012, 09:44:45 pm »
Enemy melee attacks make the game more interesting because they limit your options.

Instead of being able to cheese the game by dashing around and being uncontrollable, the threat of taking big damage from touching an enemy forces you play more passively.

It turns into an obstacle course rather than purely a dodging game. Enemies can surround and corner you, then what happens? If they have no melee, you just walk out and their positional advantage is meaningless.
When they have strong physical attacks, they can punish you for trapping you. Are you going to take the extra damage and just get out, or are you going to inevitably take damage from their projectiles until you can get a safe way out? Either way isn't optimal no, but that's what you get for being flanked/surrounded.

Maybe an option could be added to turn it off, but losing melee completely would take most of the tactics out of this game (the main reason I play this game), so I'm not a fan.


Also concerning melee, I play on Master Hero and my three main spells are Forest Rage, Death Touch, and Energy Slice.
Death Touch is very useful in that it provides massive burst damage. When you need something dead now, you smack it with death touch. In our current assortment of spells, the price of massive dps is it coming in a very short-range melee attack.
Maybe other spells can be made outside of melee range for this job, but the idea of high-risk high-reward is fair, and keeps the game interesting.