Author Topic: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?  (Read 7791 times)

Offline LintMan

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2012, 10:15:44 pm »
Quote
Instead of being able to cheese the game by dashing around and being uncontrollable, the threat of taking big damage from touching an enemy forces you play more passively.

Hardy "uncontrollable".  Many/most monsters would still have melee attacks, and most ranged monsters have an area burst style attack that makes them extremely dangerous to approch.  I'm also not sure that forcing "more passive" play style is a great selling point.

Quote
It turns into an obstacle course rather than purely a dodging game. Enemies can surround and corner you, then what happens? If they have no melee, you just walk out and their positional advantage is meaningless.

I don't think anyone is saying all the enemies should have no melee.  Just that not every enemy should do automatic damage if you touch it anywhere.  IIRC, as it stands now, some "ranged" enemies actually do more damage if you touch them than from their shots.


Offline Misery

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2012, 05:32:17 am »
Enemy melee attacks make the game more interesting because they limit your options.

Instead of being able to cheese the game by dashing around and being uncontrollable, the threat of taking big damage from touching an enemy forces you play more passively.

It turns into an obstacle course rather than purely a dodging game. Enemies can surround and corner you, then what happens? If they have no melee, you just walk out and their positional advantage is meaningless.
When they have strong physical attacks, they can punish you for trapping you. Are you going to take the extra damage and just get out, or are you going to inevitably take damage from their projectiles until you can get a safe way out? Either way isn't optimal no, but that's what you get for being flanked/surrounded.

Maybe an option could be added to turn it off, but losing melee completely would take most of the tactics out of this game (the main reason I play this game), so I'm not a fan.


Also concerning melee, I play on Master Hero and my three main spells are Forest Rage, Death Touch, and Energy Slice.
Death Touch is very useful in that it provides massive burst damage. When you need something dead now, you smack it with death touch. In our current assortment of spells, the price of massive dps is it coming in a very short-range melee attack.
Maybe other spells can be made outside of melee range for this job, but the idea of high-risk high-reward is fair, and keeps the game interesting.

This.

In particular, the part about risk/reward.... that's one of the things that the melee system causes, and it's a GOOD thing.   Generally in any game, this is a good thing.   Alot of big modern releases barely bother with this, and really, I think it makes them even MORE boring.    THIS game though, this one does it well.    The risk is getting close without taking a heavy blow..... but the reward is the monstrous damage that you can deal at a close range.

If there WASNT that risk, I'd honestly say that the melee spells (pretty much ALL of them) would be extremely unbalanced and probably well overpowered, since the difficulty in getting close would be dramatically reduced. 

Offline yllamana

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2012, 07:14:34 am »
Enemy melee attacks make the game more interesting because they limit your options.

Instead of being able to cheese the game by dashing around and being uncontrollable, the threat of taking big damage from touching an enemy forces you play more passively.

It turns into an obstacle course rather than purely a dodging game. Enemies can surround and corner you, then what happens? If they have no melee, you just walk out and their positional advantage is meaningless.
When they have strong physical attacks, they can punish you for trapping you. Are you going to take the extra damage and just get out, or are you going to inevitably take damage from their projectiles until you can get a safe way out? Either way isn't optimal no, but that's what you get for being flanked/surrounded.

Maybe an option could be added to turn it off, but losing melee completely would take most of the tactics out of this game (the main reason I play this game), so I'm not a fan.


Also concerning melee, I play on Master Hero and my three main spells are Forest Rage, Death Touch, and Energy Slice.
Death Touch is very useful in that it provides massive burst damage. When you need something dead now, you smack it with death touch. In our current assortment of spells, the price of massive dps is it coming in a very short-range melee attack.
Maybe other spells can be made outside of melee range for this job, but the idea of high-risk high-reward is fair, and keeps the game interesting.

This.

In particular, the part about risk/reward.... that's one of the things that the melee system causes, and it's a GOOD thing.   Generally in any game, this is a good thing.   Alot of big modern releases barely bother with this, and really, I think it makes them even MORE boring.    THIS game though, this one does it well.    The risk is getting close without taking a heavy blow..... but the reward is the monstrous damage that you can deal at a close range.

If there WASNT that risk, I'd honestly say that the melee spells (pretty much ALL of them) would be extremely unbalanced and probably well overpowered, since the difficulty in getting close would be dramatically reduced.
I wonder if there's some kind of higher-tier melee spell that you're using that I don't have access to. I've been using Death Touch, and my choices are pretty much to shoot an enemy one to three times to kill it safely and effortlessly from range, or move in to probably kill it in one hit with death touch at massively greater risk. Typical ranged enemies, in my experience, deal about twice as much damage if you run into them as they do with their shots. What's more, it takes about as long to close with them to punch them as it does to just shoot them twice anyway.

Can you elaborate on what you're doing that makes you find melee is so effective? Just from glancing over the spells, Death Touch is pretty close to efficient long-ranged spells in damage per mana, and while it does have very high paper DPS it can't sustain it past one or two casts because of the cost.

Offline Misery

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2012, 07:44:35 am »
Enemy melee attacks make the game more interesting because they limit your options.

Instead of being able to cheese the game by dashing around and being uncontrollable, the threat of taking big damage from touching an enemy forces you play more passively.

It turns into an obstacle course rather than purely a dodging game. Enemies can surround and corner you, then what happens? If they have no melee, you just walk out and their positional advantage is meaningless.
When they have strong physical attacks, they can punish you for trapping you. Are you going to take the extra damage and just get out, or are you going to inevitably take damage from their projectiles until you can get a safe way out? Either way isn't optimal no, but that's what you get for being flanked/surrounded.

Maybe an option could be added to turn it off, but losing melee completely would take most of the tactics out of this game (the main reason I play this game), so I'm not a fan.


Also concerning melee, I play on Master Hero and my three main spells are Forest Rage, Death Touch, and Energy Slice.
Death Touch is very useful in that it provides massive burst damage. When you need something dead now, you smack it with death touch. In our current assortment of spells, the price of massive dps is it coming in a very short-range melee attack.
Maybe other spells can be made outside of melee range for this job, but the idea of high-risk high-reward is fair, and keeps the game interesting.

This.

In particular, the part about risk/reward.... that's one of the things that the melee system causes, and it's a GOOD thing.   Generally in any game, this is a good thing.   Alot of big modern releases barely bother with this, and really, I think it makes them even MORE boring.    THIS game though, this one does it well.    The risk is getting close without taking a heavy blow..... but the reward is the monstrous damage that you can deal at a close range.

If there WASNT that risk, I'd honestly say that the melee spells (pretty much ALL of them) would be extremely unbalanced and probably well overpowered, since the difficulty in getting close would be dramatically reduced.
I wonder if there's some kind of higher-tier melee spell that you're using that I don't have access to. I've been using Death Touch, and my choices are pretty much to shoot an enemy one to three times to kill it safely and effortlessly from range, or move in to probably kill it in one hit with death touch at massively greater risk. Typical ranged enemies, in my experience, deal about twice as much damage if you run into them as they do with their shots. What's more, it takes about as long to close with them to punch them as it does to just shoot them twice anyway.

Can you elaborate on what you're doing that makes you find melee is so effective? Just from glancing over the spells, Death Touch is pretty close to efficient long-ranged spells in damage per mana, and while it does have very high paper DPS it can't sustain it past one or two casts because of the cost.


The spell I'm mainly using for melee is Ice Burst.   Usually, using it without any enchants to boost it, since the attack-boost enchant I've been using for the current continent has always been an Air type.   This is with a Draconite, who tends to have a really high attack power (over 200%).   This is on Hero difficulty, so enemies have fairly decent amounts of health (some, like worms or those bloody Clockwork jerks, have ALOT).     I do tend to Storm Dash in short little bursts, which can let me get close to an enemy really fast if done correctly (takes practice though to do this without getting hit by something).

I'm also using a Fire Shield, though I rarely turn it on in basic combat against normal foes, but it can help with this type of attack.


Part of the reason I do this so much is because I'm used to this sort of thing.  Danmaku shmups (the really crazy ones with 80 kersquillion bullets onscreen at once) are my favorite genre, so I'm pretty good at dealing with alot of things at once;  most enemy patterns are fairly simplistic and have obvious timing, so it's not too hard to get close to them and smash them with the Ice Burst.   I tend not to get hit all that often, and actually am probably going to ratchet the difficulty up further, though I wanna beat continent 4 first (and maybe start a new world).   I usually only crash into enemies if I actually fall on them, or if I'm being impatient and Storm Dashing too much (and THAT hurts).

It also depends on the enemy though, as to what spell I'm going to throw at it.  Ball Lightning is my main spell right now, so Lightning Espers are a pain and take almost no damage from it, so they're one of the main things I use Ice Burst on.   Though I'll smack other esper types with it as well.   

Though I'll also use it on things like the Nightmare Octopi (yes, I can get close without getting hit there, though it's difficult), since those guys have way too much health and are dangerous as heck, I usually want them dead RIGHT NOW, so Ice Burst is the way I do that.  Also used to deal with pretty much any of the "background" enemies like the Gazebos or Slimes or those hateful lions.

I'll use it on some bosses (the wasp in particular). 


It might be worth comparing it to Death Touch;  the hitbox on Ice Burst may be a little bigger..... it wouldnt be much, but even a small increase in hitbox size might make it that much easier for you to melee enemies, and Ice Burst is a VERY strong spell, so I dont think you'd be sacrificing damage.   Probably worth experimenting with.


Other than that..... I'm not using any special spells or enchants for this.  It's just something that takes practice, in order to be able to do it easier.   It probably also helps that I'm aggressive by nature and will tend to charge at things to begin with.

Offline yllamana

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2012, 08:13:59 am »
Ice Burst doesn't seem to be available for me on Continent One. I've been using Death Touch, and like I said it's not really worth using at all - per point of mana, it's roughly equivalent to the ranged spells while being a lot more dangerous to use while exposing you to a lot more danger.

I just beat the Overlord for the first time (yay) so I'll move on to the next continent and see if things change there. So far, what I said earlier in the thread is holding for me, though - the style of play that's most rewarded is staying at long range and plinking. It exposes you to much less risk while doing similar damage to punching stuff with Death Touch. Maybe it's a first continent issue, so we'll see!

Offline Misery

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2012, 09:02:11 am »
Ice Burst doesn't seem to be available for me on Continent One. I've been using Death Touch, and like I said it's not really worth using at all - per point of mana, it's roughly equivalent to the ranged spells while being a lot more dangerous to use while exposing you to a lot more danger.

I just beat the Overlord for the first time (yay) so I'll move on to the next continent and see if things change there. So far, what I said earlier in the thread is holding for me, though - the style of play that's most rewarded is staying at long range and plinking. It exposes you to much less risk while doing similar damage to punching stuff with Death Touch. Maybe it's a first continent issue, so we'll see!

Aye, you need White Witch Hair as the arcane ingredient for Ice Burst, and I dont think it's available on continent 1.   I could be wrong.   I forget exactly what you have to do in order to unlock it.

You might also consider trying the Whip spells;  they also should have a longer range than Death Touch, and are actually pretty useful just in a general sense. 

I do recommend investing in a shield spell though.  Those things are REALLY useful.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2012, 09:26:02 am »
Enemy melee attacks make the game more interesting because they limit your options.

Instead of being able to cheese the game by dashing around and being uncontrollable, the threat of taking big damage from touching an enemy forces you play more passively.

It turns into an obstacle course rather than purely a dodging game. Enemies can surround and corner you, then what happens? If they have no melee, you just walk out and their positional advantage is meaningless.
When they have strong physical attacks, they can punish you for trapping you. Are you going to take the extra damage and just get out, or are you going to inevitably take damage from their projectiles until you can get a safe way out? Either way isn't optimal no, but that's what you get for being flanked/surrounded.

Maybe an option could be added to turn it off, but losing melee completely would take most of the tactics out of this game (the main reason I play this game), so I'm not a fan.


Also concerning melee, I play on Master Hero and my three main spells are Forest Rage, Death Touch, and Energy Slice.
Death Touch is very useful in that it provides massive burst damage. When you need something dead now, you smack it with death touch. In our current assortment of spells, the price of massive dps is it coming in a very short-range melee attack.
Maybe other spells can be made outside of melee range for this job, but the idea of high-risk high-reward is fair, and keeps the game interesting.

This.

In particular, the part about risk/reward.... that's one of the things that the melee system causes, and it's a GOOD thing.   Generally in any game, this is a good thing.   Alot of big modern releases barely bother with this, and really, I think it makes them even MORE boring.    THIS game though, this one does it well.    The risk is getting close without taking a heavy blow..... but the reward is the monstrous damage that you can deal at a close range.

If there WASNT that risk, I'd honestly say that the melee spells (pretty much ALL of them) would be extremely unbalanced and probably well overpowered, since the difficulty in getting close would be dramatically reduced.

Just wanted to clarify.

I am NOT suggesting that enemy melee become less widespread, prevalent, or punishing. Almost everything that has a melee makes sense to have one. What I am saying is that for many enemies, it should shift from a "free" melee from merely touching them to a more active melee that they have to try to do and it would count as an ability. They would still be very aggressive with hitting you and possibly pushing you around when you got close, just like now.

Offline x4000

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2012, 03:19:39 pm »
What I am saying is that for many enemies, it should shift from a "free" melee from merely touching them to a more active melee that they have to try to do and it would count as an ability. They would still be very aggressive with hitting you and possibly pushing you around when you got close, just like now.

And that would be horribly broken balance-wise in MP (being able to hit only one character at a time).  Plus require a whole lot of code and bugs to arrive at something that, in practice, would feel very close to what we have now.  I'm not enthused in any way by that prospect. ;)

EDIT: Also in MP, monster melees are client-side so that you never get hit by something that was around the corner.  If it was an active ability that caused cooldowns, that really wouldn't work in any logical fashion.  Even if we wanted to change it, I don't think we could reasonably do so.
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Offline darkchair

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2012, 03:23:31 pm »
Particular examples of Death Touch being useful are:

Quickly killing dangerous enemies in battleground missions. For example, those magma rhinos decimate everything, you have to kill them asap. When they are shielded by their skelebot friends, you have to get in there and decimate them
Killing bats that sneak up on you. In particular killing frost bats that have immobilized you and melee you to death up close
Killing assertive enemies that trap you in a corner. Lesser teleport helps too
Killing background entity enemies. Gazebos, Possesed Lion Statues
Killing parts of a gang to decrease their dps. Sometimes you have to take damage, but you don't have much health. It's helpful to be able to eliminate an enemy or two immediately to increase the time you have to deal with the others

I didn't think too long about this, but the overall response is: When you need something dead now, use Death Touch (or similar).

Offline Gemzo

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2012, 03:55:05 pm »
I honestly would support active enemy attacks replacing contact damage in a lot of cases but I can understand it definitely not working for multiplayer. So instead I'll discuss a different melee thing that was brought up.

The whole "ranged enemies do way more damage with melee than ranged" thing is a tad silly in some cases. But, it also makes a lot of sense in other cases. Like running into an explosive/lightning esper definitely makes sense to do sizable contact damage. On the other hand tripping over a clockwork probe does far too much damage (especially since their movement patterns definitely do not imply any sort of attempt to melee you). Their ranged attack and health+knockback immunity already make them enough of a challenge really, but they're strong all across the board (except in the AI department, they seem to just randomly move around and shoot if you happen to be in range). That is just one example, though.

Alternatively maybe their ranged attacks are just simply too weak...

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2012, 04:22:07 pm »
I honestly would support active enemy attacks replacing contact damage in a lot of cases but I can understand it definitely not working for multiplayer. So instead I'll discuss a different melee thing that was brought up.

The whole "ranged enemies do way more damage with melee than ranged" thing is a tad silly in some cases. But, it also makes a lot of sense in other cases. Like running into an explosive/lightning esper definitely makes sense to do sizable contact damage. On the other hand tripping over a clockwork probe does far too much damage (especially since their movement patterns definitely do not imply any sort of attempt to melee you). Their ranged attack and health+knockback immunity already make them enough of a challenge really, but they're strong all across the board (except in the AI department, they seem to just randomly move around and shoot if you happen to be in range). That is just one example, though.

Alternatively maybe their ranged attacks are just simply too weak...

Yea, if adding in a new melee damage mechanic for enemies is just too much for right now, then can this be looked at?
Specifically, making sure that the melee damage output of non-melee focused enemies makes some sort of sense compared to their ranged attack. (The explosion esper vs. clockwork probe Gemzo mentioned is one great example of why this may deserve a look at)

Offline x4000

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2012, 04:27:08 pm »
In for the next version:

* Clockwork probes no longer have a melee attack.


That's a good example of one that I agree was not fitting to have a melee attack at all, let alone just having it toned down.  As a general rule this thread has been about blanket statements (see what I did there?  :P), but I don't have time to investigate all this stuff on my own right now.  You folks already have given me a to-do list ten miles long, and I'm chewing through that.  If there are specific other cases that seem out of joint with the monsters in the game, I'm happy to consider them if someone brings them up.
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Offline khadgar

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2012, 09:21:34 pm »
Here is an idea to make melee different than it is:

Add an enchant that decreases the damage dealt to the player from melee attacks, while simultaneously decreases the damage dealt by the player from ranged attacks. Call it "brawler" or something, make it a torso enchant or whatever.

A way to implement this that would make it a fun new alternative would be to make the damage reduction a set number & not a percentage. So "Reduces damage received in melee by 10 (minimum 1). This could make you immune to some of the weaker melees perhaps, but it balances out by ensuring you must get close, due to your ranged spells being weaker.

Offline x4000

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2012, 09:25:16 pm »
Maybe -- check out the changes in the upcoming version tonight, though.  Some of the character classes now have some melee damage reduction anyhow, so if you like the low-melee option you can go for something like Medieval characters in particular now.
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Offline khadgar

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Re: Enemy Melee, posisble refactoring?
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2012, 09:30:10 pm »
Oh. I have not played AVWW since Diablo III came out, so I'm not up to speed on all the cool new changes.