Endgame is no game

[Nethellus]

At continent 4, there is no reason to continue playing the game the way it is intended. You've unlocked everything, and the only thing that happens when you kill lieutenants is that the game gets harder, and that's counterproductive, so you might as well stay on tier 1.

The only thing left to do is play the loot game and get better enchants, and the most effective way to do so is to NOT do what you're supposed to. Kill no lieutenants, leave the overlord alone, place no wind shelters, and you will be able to farm endless amounts of enchantments much much faster than any other way. Just get a high mana character, go as far into the windstorm as you can, turn on your shield and kill some enemies. At windstorm level 10 you can easily get a hundred thousand consciousness shards just running through the overworld of an area, then go back to town and buy a hundred enchantments and see what you get.

In this situation you don't want to build wind shelters because this makes enemies drop less, and once they are built there is no way to remove them and restore the high drop rate, and you don't want the lieutenants to die because this makes the enemies you want to kill stronger.

This is not right. The best way to get loot should not be by ignoring what you should be doing in the game. In my opinion the best way should be by exploring, doing missions or killing the lieutenants or the overlord. So either their drops need to be drastically increased, or this farming should be nerfed.

I like to play on the highest difficulty, and when the game is that hard, I use everything that I can to my advantage, but by doing so, I have to stop playing the game, because I don't want to give up the advantage that I have over my enemies, especially since I have nothing to gain from doing so. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's not worth it to kill stronger enemies or do more difficult things when you can get 100x more out of killing tier 1 trash mobs over and over again.

The reward system has suffered a fatal error and will now exit.

[tigersfan]

I'm assuming that what you are asking for here is more content past the 4th continent. We'd love to do that, but at this point in time, it's not really something we can focus on. We really need to focus on adding content earlier in the game to get more variety there. I have no doubt that we will eventually add more content to the 4th continent and beyond, but, that's not likely to happen too soon.

[Nethellus]

Um. Nope. Did you only read the first paragraph?
Right now it is much more rewarding to not progress than to do so, and that is the problem.

[TechSY730]

I think he is stating that once you have unlocked all the content, but the game still keeps going (and it will happen, due to the finite amount of types of content but non-bounded number of continents), there is nothing left to do but get stronger and collect more stuff.
As he said, the problem is, the most efficient way of getting stronger, once everything is unlocked, is to deliberately not go through the normal progression of a continent, as the rate of rewards you get for exploring and farming in a "non-progressed" area tends to be better than the rewards from progressing normally.

This leads to a tricky problem. How can you reward early/risky exploration when there is still new stuff unlock by normal progression, but keep normal progression desirable for when normal progression can give no new types of unlocks, as you have unlocked everything?

[Bluddy]

I think this problem exists even in the first continent. The fact that enchants get better the more you get of them, that the store allows you to purchase enchants, and that you get big multipliers for playing in the wind means that it's a great idea to leave the wind, leave the enemies at tier 1, and farm the heck out of the windy areas.

1. Enchants should not get better the more you find of them -- their level should be tied to continent and tier ie. they go up as your enemy level goes up, with a slight chance of getting stronger enchants than your current continent/tier. This is the way every ARPG does it, and there's a good reason for it.
2. There should not be a huge incentive for playing inside the windy areas. The devs have basically encouraged farming, which is precisely what they set out not to do originally. The incentive should be very small and subtle.
3. Wind areas aren't brutal enough to justify the incentive. Every square inside the wind (aside from the first square where you'll build wind shelters) should increase the tier again.

[Nethellus]

How about this: Enchant quality is capped and cannot get better beyond a certain limit, but this limit can be increased by defeating lieutenants and the overlord. This would mean that you could still farm if you really wanted to, but eventually you would have to move on with the game.
This cap should be visible to the player, so that he knows when it is hit.

I agree that windstorms are far too easy, especially with shields. One way to make them harder would be to make windstorms have to go through shields before they take away health, or perhaps damage both health and shields at the same time.

[Zozma]

So you'll farm enchants in low tier and then proceed not to use them on anything, because you insist that there's no reason to progress the tiers?

Isn't the overlord still higher tier than the starting tier? And the lieutenants? Then it's in your best interest to get higher tiers to get the tier orbs necessary to unlock better spells. Unless you're done with progressing the game, period, in which case the only thing the devs can do is add additional content later on. I don't think the devs need to plan or balance around players who only want to get better enchants without DOING anything with them. You can raise a lot of consciousness shards by going into a windstorm, but you can do that just as easily at higher tiers, too. And if progressing the game is pointless to you at that point, anyway, then I can't imagine why you'd even care enough to gather enchants, or why you would want the devs to inhibit your ability to do so if that's all you have fun doing.

[TechSY730]

So you'll farm enchants in low tier and then proceed not to use them on anything, because you insist that there's no reason to progress the tiers?

Isn't the overlord still higher tier than the starting tier? And the lieutenants? Then it's in your best interest to get higher tiers to get the tier orbs necessary to unlock better spells. Unless you're done with progressing the game, period, in which case the only thing the devs can do is add additional content later on. I don't think the devs need to plan or balance around players who only want to get better enchants without DOING anything with them. You can raise a lot of consciousness shards by going into a windstorm, but you can do that just as easily at higher tiers, too. And if progressing the game is pointless to you at that point, anyway, then I can't imagine why you'd even care enough to gather enchants, or why you would want the devs to inhibit your ability to do so if that's all you have fun doing.

I think that eventually, the enchants you start getting are so good, that you can take on the overlords and lieutenants at tier one and be about as strong or possibly stronger then you would be if you progressed "normally", and if you know what you are doing, possibly around the same or even less time using the method the OP mentioned.

[Zozma]

So you'll farm enchants in low tier and then proceed not to use them on anything, because you insist that there's no reason to progress the tiers?

Isn't the overlord still higher tier than the starting tier? And the lieutenants? Then it's in your best interest to get higher tiers to get the tier orbs necessary to unlock better spells. Unless you're done with progressing the game, period, in which case the only thing the devs can do is add additional content later on. I don't think the devs need to plan or balance around players who only want to get better enchants without DOING anything with them. You can raise a lot of consciousness shards by going into a windstorm, but you can do that just as easily at higher tiers, too. And if progressing the game is pointless to you at that point, anyway, then I can't imagine why you'd even care enough to gather enchants, or why you would want the devs to inhibit your ability to do so if that's all you have fun doing.

I think that eventually, the enchants you start getting are so good, that you can take on the overlords and lieutenants at tier one and be about as strong or possibly stronger then you would be if you progressed "normally", and if you know what you are doing, possibly around the same or even less time using the method the OP mentioned.

If enchants really can become that absurd, then that's a fair point. Either a cap or the assurance that enchants of that strength will only be available via red containers would be a step toward rectifying that.

[keith.lamothe]

Actually, 4 optional effects is the current max on an enchant; we're planning to add more later when it makes sense but at that point it's just a matter of the game gen'ing one you want (presumably with all 4 effects being "elite" and thus the item being orange/legendary).  But getting a full set of legendary takes a while, much less one with just the right stats you want, etc.

[7foot_sativa]

So I skimmed this, and it looks like noone pointed out the part where it mentions enchants getting stronger as you beat more continents. If I remember correctly then you'll find it in the things you should do, things less important section for enchants.

At Continent 7 on the server I play on most, I decided to try beating the continent right away after getting T2 of most of my spells(this took 2 main missions, so my CP was only 80 once Overlord died). My enchantments were probably far better than yours will be if you stay at 4 continents. The server always has used default difficulty.

Your method sounds cool to try, but it hardly ever gets you better enchants then you already have, even the 2 legendaries per 10k shards are useless usually. I bet if you managed to generate a continent with an Overlord tower deep in the windstorm, you'll get lots. Higher tier than the continent is worth more shards too, so imagine an Overlord map square in the deepest point of a windstorm with no Lieutenants killed.

I now feel like testing time taken to kill a T14 enemy with a T2 spell vs Time taken to kill T1 enemies with T2 spells in a distant storm.

[Misery]

I think this problem exists even in the first continent. The fact that enchants get better the more you get of them, that the store allows you to purchase enchants, and that you get big multipliers for playing in the wind means that it's a great idea to leave the wind, leave the enemies at tier 1, and farm the heck out of the windy areas.

1. Enchants should not get better the more you find of them -- their level should be tied to continent and tier ie. they go up as your enemy level goes up, with a slight chance of getting stronger enchants than your current continent/tier. This is the way every ARPG does it, and there's a good reason for it.
2. There should not be a huge incentive for playing inside the windy areas. The devs have basically encouraged farming, which is precisely what they set out not to do originally. The incentive should be very small and subtle.
3. Wind areas aren't brutal enough to justify the incentive. Every square inside the wind (aside from the first square where you'll build wind shelters) should increase the tier again.

This.

And really, much as I like the shield spells, when you think about it, they SHOULD NOT WORK..... at all...... in a windstorm.  Part of the point of the wind is that it goes through EVERYTHING and permeates EVERYTHING.   There's supposed to be no defense against it whatsoever.    It's supposed to wreck you.   PARTICULARLY if you're playing at a very high difficulty, 10 squares into the storm.... honestly, you shouldnt be CAPABLE of surviving that far in.

And I agree, there shouldnt be any incentive to go into the wind, ASIDE FROM the occaisional mission spawning there that you might REALLY want for some reason, and you decide to risk going 2-3 squares into the storm zone to get it. 

I actually think enemies in storms shouldnt drop ANY shards..... at all.  None.   Not even one.    If the player is THAT desperate to farm shards..... which frankly is a damn silly idea..... force them to do it at the base drop rate.   Storms shouldnt have incentive to enter them.   They should have incentive to stay the hell OUT of them..... that's the whole point, yes?

[Nethellus]

Actually, 4 optional effects is the current max on an enchant; we're planning to add more later when it makes sense but at that point it's just a matter of the game gen'ing one you want (presumably with all 4 effects being "elite" and thus the item being orange/legendary).  But getting a full set of legendary takes a while, much less one with just the right stats you want, etc.

So there is a cap? If I understand it correctly, the effects do not get stronger the more enchants you get, only the number of them increase until you have 4 extra.
So could you by chance get a perfect item where every one of these effects are the ones you want as well as at their maximum? Is that a one in a million or billion chance or what? Knowing the range of the effects would really help.

[TechSY730]

And really, much as I like the shield spells, when you think about it, they SHOULD NOT WORK..... at all...... in a windstorm.  Part of the point of the wind is that it goes through EVERYTHING and permeates EVERYTHING.   There's supposed to be no defense against it whatsoever.    It's supposed to wreck you.   PARTICULARLY if you're playing at a very high difficulty, 10 squares into the storm.... honestly, you shouldnt be CAPABLE of surviving that far in.

Well, something like that is already in for 1.023 (which JUST came out as I was typing this)

And also shields now take damage just as you do when you are in a windstorm or ambient cold/heat or acid/lava, etc.

If I am reading that right, that means when you have a shield up, both you AND the shield will be taking wind damage, thus the shields won't stop the wind, only damage from enemies.


Also, what is the current formula for increase of windstorm intensity per tile inwards? Judging by other people's reports, I'm guessing its probably not steep enough.

[Nethellus]

Nerfing the shields does make farming windstorms slightly harder, but it is still by far the easiest way to get enchants in the entire game and in fact, the most efficient way to do so is at the very beginning of the game, on the first continent, tier 1 with no wind shelters because enemies have a lot less health on continent 1 (enemies get 30% more health with each continent up to 5).

This is backwards. As it is right now, at the beginning of the game you instantly get access to the most plentiful and easiest to gain loot, and then as you play and place wind shelters, kill lieutenants and progress to other continents, that same loot only gets harder to get and comes in much much smaller quantities.

Loot should increase with progression and difficulty, not start at the maximum and then decrease. You don't give everything to the player instantly, you make him work for it.