Enchant Container Charges (and the inventory storage)

[silverhound]

After having played a bit on Toll's server again, there were two feelings (for me) that cropped up about ECC's.

They feel exploitable on worlds where a lot of ECC's were already collected.
Just making a new character and picking up a single container fills your entire inventory (and on Tolls you can just clean out the inventory several times and do it all over again)

They were annoying me to the point of fearing running into another container.
I like to keep a clean inventory, if i dont need it it's out. (okay, it's not as clean as i might want it to be, but i'm trying)
Running into a single container and having it instantly fill my entire inventory? stuff of nightmares.

Personally, i'd love an option to not have containers turn into enchants 'unless your inventory is full' just so that i would be able to pick up containers to up the charge count for others without turning my own inventory into a mess, since i'm sort of doing my best to avoid touching them right now.
(is there a way to see how many full charges you have left to go? i'm kind of missing the 100%+ number right now, even if its just to tell me that i dont have a giant backlog waiting anymore).

Anyway i was wondering how others feel about the way ECC's work right now, am i alone on wanting my enchant inventory to not look like a big wall every time i open it?

Also, i was wondering how this works in combination with the rare enchant giving containers from the lieutenants / overlord, how does it queue picking up those if your inventory is full, and what does it do if you pick those up with a significant backlog (will it give you lots of rare enchants?)

[Hyfrydle]

My thoughts on this are that the enchant inventory is much too big at 100 slots. We have 5 slots that take enchants so 25 slots would allow 5 options per slot and be much more manageable. Also if the inventory is full perhaps enchant containers don't give enchants on reaching 100% but some other bonus. Maybe when enough are collected it becomes possible to upgrade the character beyond the 10 upgrades currently available.

This is something that I feel definately needs looking at after the release tomorrow.

[tigersfan]

Well, the problem is that there are a TON of enchants collected in a world as old as Toll's. And, if you aren't brought up to speed, you are going to be able to compete on the same level as those who have been playing for a long time and have the top enchants.

I'm not trying to dismiss your views, I do get what you are saying. I'm just saying that there isn't an easy solution to this that I see.

[Terraziel]

I rarely have more than twenty enchants in my inventory, and that is including diluters and seekers. Anything I'm not going to use gets dumped in my settlement (awaiting the mechanic that lets me turn them into something useful), so I can sympathise with wanting a tidy enchant inventory.  Personally I just wish there was a simpler way of drop things, drag and drop gets tedious pretty quickly.

As to the multiplayer mechanics...Well I don't play multiplayer, but I understand why new players need to be given a lot of enchants upfront in advanced servers, that said, unless I'm missing something don't players in multiplayer get far too many enchants anyway?

I mean as I understand the mechanics behind enchants in multiplayer if I had 10 players on a server off doing their own thing then each individual player be will acquiring enchants at 10x the speed of singleplayer, and then if a new player joins he will suddenly get 10 peoples worth of enchants, not one persons worth.

[Hyfrydle]

Well, the problem is that there are a TON of enchants collected in a world as old as Toll's. And, if you aren't brought up to speed, you are going to be able to compete on the same level as those who have been playing for a long time and have the top enchants.

I'm not trying to dismiss your views, I do get what you are saying. I'm just saying that there isn't an easy solution to this that I see.

I understand that a new player in multiplayer would have a disadvantage if they had no enchants, but the most you can use at any one time is 5 so joining a server and having 100 (worse case scenario) creates a situation where the enchants received need to be sorted manually so find the one's worth keeping.

I have found that once I have my 5 enchant slots filled I tend to stick with them unless something that's better in that slot comes along and in all honesty the number of poor enchants massively outweighs the one's worth keeping. So I change very rarely. The exception to this is some of the specialist enchants i.e. acid gills with specific uses which I keep and use as and when required.

[Kregoth]

I have always felt the way enchantments work are IMHO more tedious then they are fun, doing a few runs through pyramids easily gets you a lot of enchantments, and this is even more so in multiplayer. The giant maze rooms are kinda annoying because having all the enchantments vials kinda forces you to explore the entire area instead of searching for the end where your prize lays in wait. after a while it gets more tedious as you collect more and they are incredibly crucial to game play. I wanted to propose a system about a change in the way they worked but being so close to launch I didn't want to put it up here or in mantis.

My idea was that Enchantment vials are a single pick up that gets you a random enchantment but are more scarce then they are now, rooms like mazes will always have them, but only 1-3 at most which in turns make that room feel more maze like as your searching for an item instead of all the vials. I also thought that if we combined 2 of same kind would give you a new random one of the same type which gets you a new one with a small chance of getting a better one. These two things would make enchantments hunting a bit more rewarding because your not finding the vials around every corner, and when you get full you at least have a way of taking a gamble by combining 2 of term in hopes of a better one.

End point is especially on multiplayer is that they are just to numerous and easily obtainable that they don't feel rewarding because they are so easy to get. If the mechanic was change a bit so they are more worthwhile exploring for because they are less numerous then it more rewarding for the player because they have to search for them, instead right now they feel more like a grind to obtain because maze rooms are the go to place, and it feels forced running through them just to obtain the vials.

being so close to launch though this is something to look into post1.0 I think it would just make more sense making them have a more rewarding feeling by making them more about searching for them then grinding a maze room.

[Martyn van Buren]

I don't fully understand the enchant-granting mechanics, but would it be possible in multiplayer to start the player out with a small set of enchants at a similar power-level to what other players have and then let them acquire new enchants normally starting from that level? 

I guess the game would consider that they've already collected everything the other players have as "ghost" enchants that rule out getting them again but don't actually appear in inventory.  That way, you'd start at a reasonable level of power but with less flexibility than someone who's been in the world longer, which seems fair, and then you'd gain flexibility pretty quickly as you got new enchants.

[Toll]

It would probably be easier to give a player a maximum of 20 or so enchantments if they have enchantment points left, and the rest are only counted as given (so, for instance, if a new player joins and would get 120 enchantments, the first 100 are never actually given, but the last 20 are given at a power as if the first 100 actually were given). That would still leave them at the mercy of the RNG though; what if they didn't get any enchants they liked among those 20?

[Martyn van Buren]

I mean, as long as they were fairly potent enchants, that would be all right, right?  I feel like when I join a new multiplayer thing my hope is to have a powerful enough character to join in fights and contribute, rather than the perfectly tuned kit I'd have if I'd been playing there for hours.  I would have thought that having to make do with powerful-but-not-favorite enchants when you start would give you a nice mini-progression to catch up in terms of customization without excluding you from playing. 

I guess it does depend rather on whether we imagine that with AVWW people will join multiplayer servers for a long while and have time to build up a kit on each server they play on, or drop in and out of different servers to do a few missions without committing.  Does anyone have experience about that question?  I've barely touched multiplayer myself.

[Wanderer]

There aren't enough servers nor MP players yet to answer your question, though I do know I trade people with Toll's server depending on how laggy he is that day.

[jonasan]

I have always felt the way enchantments work are IMHO more tedious then they are fun...

... My idea was that Enchantment vials are a single pick up that gets you a random enchantment but are more scarce then they are now...

... If the mechanic was change a bit so they are more worthwhile exploring for because they are less numerous then it more rewarding for the player because they have to search for them, instead right now they feel more like a grind to obtain because maze rooms are the go to place, and it feels forced running through them just to obtain the vials. ...

... I think it would just make more sense making them have a more rewarding feeling by making them more about searching for them then grinding a maze room.

I wanted to give a quick opinion in response to what you posted kregoth... for me the beauty of this game is that its about exploration and fighting your way through to collect different items to continue progressing while at the same time never feeling like you have to grind anything. It has been one of the design goals from the very beginning to cut out the 'grinding feeling' which is so common in video games today. Personally I think this has been superbly balanced throughout the whole game and enchants are no exception....

yeah when you first start out as an 'enchantless' glyph bearer there is a motivation to go seek the vials which (as with everything else your ever going to need) gives you the motivation to go exploring a new type of area - temples and modern ruins in this case due to the high seeding rate of enchant containers. but once you have a few in the bag you start to broaden your search for other items and doing more missions. It's then that, in my opinion you realise that there is no need to grind enchants because the charge containers are sufficiently seeded everywhere that you dont have to make a specific thing out of searching for them. For me its no different from granite or walnuts. Take journey to perfection missions for example, high seeding rate of enchant containers and different reason to be there - i.e. trying for the perfect run and mission rewards while at the same time harvesting plenty of enchant containers. After the early game i feel no need to grind enchants at all, it dosn't feel tedious because they just accumulate slowly as i quest for other goals.

i dont feel like the way enchants are accumulated needs to be changed (multi-player is a separate issue) because i just dont see it as a grind at all. if they suddenly became a scarce commodity i feel like they would become something to grind, something else i have to specifically go searching for and i dont think the game needs more of this. I love the way everything you need leads you to a new experience while at the same time there is nothing here that you have to grind for repeatedly throught the game - the way arcen have it balanced and with the unlocks and diversity in regions makes it feel like you are always looking for something fresh, something new - never grinding the same thing as before...

Take upgrade stones for example.... when you start out you go searching for them specifically to boost up your character. You raid some houses specifically looking for stones and boost up your characters health etc. Permadeath, and the potential loss of those upgrades makes you cautious and teaches you to 'respect your health bar', and you wonder if everytime you die you will have to go through that same grind for stones to get a workable character. But as you continue adventuring with that same character and guard against his/her death you pick up stones along the way, without going out specifically for them. Soon your up to ten upgrades on your character and have enough stones in the bank to be confident of not having to grind them when you inevitable death occurs. It's perfect.

maybe the reason you want to grind is because you are searching for specific enchants for your character? For me I am very happy to work with the system and play the 'character build' that my current  enchants offer (though from experience the number you collect soon allows for many different types of characters). This is one of valley's strengths in my opinion - the diversity of experiences and play styles available. I like the fact that a truly procedural game such as this requires you adapt to what you find in your world, as you unfold your story - and I also appreciate the superb replay value this kind of freeform procedural gaming experience offers.

But maybe one way to reduce the feeling some players have to grind enchants is to change the way enchants are determined not collected - one of the ideas that came up during the brainstorming thread on this topic might be suitable - that is the idea that when you get 100% charge for an enchant you can pick from 2 or 3 randomly generated enchants instead of just automatically receiving one random enchant?

you think this would help??

[Bluddy]

My thinking about multiplayer enchant catch-ups is that dumping a lot of enchants on the player turns them from fun to tedious. Imagine getting 100 weapons at once in Diablo... Also, the previous mechanism of giving out enchants with each container takes the fun out of it as well, since you don't feel like you're doing anything yet you quickly get swamped with enchants.

My idea is that so long as you have an 'enchant credit', you get a bonus enchant or 2 for every enchant you normally get. So you have to do some enchant hunting the same way you would normally, but you get a little bonus to allow you to hunt for less time and catch up to the other players faster. This way it still feels fair, and it doesn't overwhelm the player. What do you guys think?

[Penumbra]

I think if we had enchant sorting it would greatly lessen the burden of going through them. Even on a character that didn't get them all at once, I spent about 40 minutes last night sorting and discarding old enchants since I never really took the time before to clean house.

[LintMan]

I think if we had enchant sorting it would greatly lessen the burden of going through them. Even on a character that didn't get them all at once, I spent about 40 minutes last night sorting and discarding old enchants since I never really took the time before to clean house.

This would be great.

[Hyfrydle]

I think if we had enchant sorting it would greatly lessen the burden of going through them. Even on a character that didn't get them all at once, I spent about 40 minutes last night sorting and discarding old enchants since I never really took the time before to clean house.

I had this problem but only once I now sort and discard as I receive so I never get into this state again.