Does Permadeath Belong Here?

[Bluddy]

I'd like to raise the question of whether permadeath even belongs in this game. As far as I can tell, permadeath really belongs in rogue-likes where it increases suspense, because you could lose everything any moment. In AVWW, you're not really supposed to lose the whole game. Therefore, whatever sense of loss you might get from losing a character can only be equivalent to a character dying in an MMORPG: an XP loss aka a grind punishment.

At the same time, permadeath has a serious downside which Tom Chick pointed out in his podcast: it detaches you completely from your avatar. And that's really not good. People like their avatar to grow in power and thrive. They like to identify with him/her/it, even if their avatar never talks.

There's another issue as well: a much more natural gameplay element suggests itself very strongly in this game. You're collecting survivors, right? And they come from different time periods, and have different abilities etc. So the natural suggestion is that the survivors are the ones whose bodies the glyph should control. Here's how it would work out more or less: if you die, you're just incapacitated. You then have to choose one of the other characters you have in your settlement. If all characters are incapacitated, then you get some penalty. This penalty could be strategic or it could be grind-related, as time passes by for all characters to heal.

This also allows for some really cool possibilities. Inventories could be made character-specific. Each character could store a different collection of spells and enchants, and could therefore offer completely different gameplay. Getting more characters means getting another life (before the penalty hits), but it also means you could have another character to customize. You get to know your different characters, care about them, and appreciate their different abilities.

[Hyfrydle]

This I feel is a fantastic idea and makes more sense than the current permadeath system. It would open up all sorts of interesting gameplay possibilities.

Good one!!!

[tigersfan]

While I can see some potential in an idea like this, there's no way we're in any position to make a change like this right now. We have much more pressing issues to be working on right now.

[Chex Warrior]

Maybe if a player is "killed" they could get captured and this could lead into some sort of hard rescue survivor mission. Or they could get locked up in a Lieutenant's tower, that would give another good reason to take those guys out.

[Martyn van Buren]

I strongly favor the current system; it's very cool that death means death. I believe Chris said yesterday they're thinking of making upgrades free, which will totally remove the grind penalty, and that's fine by me. I absolutely agree that permadeath needs to be developed out more, but it seems like the current goal of making it mostly a thematic thing is a much more unique and interesting thing that has to do with trying to honor and remember the dead than an RPG's "oh one of your guys died but you get to take it back" or some new thicket of intertwined bonuses and stats.

[madcow]

From a thematic point of view, its kind of weird that despite having X number of survivors, when your gylphbearer dies you still have X number of survivors. It doesn't bother me enough to be worth changing things over, its just sort of seemed odd is all, as it would be an awful idea if once X survivors all die its game over on the continent.

[Nethellus]

How about implementing a hardcore mode, where the death of your character means game over, unless you have other survivors in your settlement? Then if you die, you don't get to pick a new character, you have to pick one in your settlement you have already rescued. This way, every survivor would be valuable and rescue mission would be much more important since every survivor you rescue means an extra life.

[omegajasam]

yes, Permadeath belongs here I think. The problem is right now it doesn't feel quite 'stong' enough of a penelty. (Suiciding for better characters, to try out new classes and all sorts happons a lot). With the upgrade stone change (which was a good change, grind peneltys are not fun) theres not a lot of weight to a death. Before that though, it was nerve racking

Without it, the only penlty is the annoying getting back to where you were and possably a mission failure.

[Bluddy]

yes, Permadeath belongs here I think. The problem is right now it doesn't feel quite 'stong' enough of a penelty. (Suiciding for better characters, to try out new classes and all sorts happons a lot). With the upgrade stone change (which was a good change, grind peneltys are not fun) theres not a lot of weight to a death. Before that though, it was nerve racking

Without it, the only penlty is the annoying getting back to where you were and possably a mission failure.

The point I made is that permadeath can't have a real impact here. The only penalty can be a grind penalty (like an XP penalty). You could have the same penalty happen when a character is incapacitated. The only thing permadeath is doing is preventing you from getting attached to your avatar(s). Wouldn't it be cooler to collect your playable characters for your settlement and then use them (and grow them), rather than mysteriously finding random wanderers you don't get attached to, to take the place of your dead avatar?

[MouldyK]

If this was actually implemented, I would want more survivor missions or atleast know the stats of those I am saving.

[omegajasam]

No, not really. Your just introducing corpse runs, aka a grind. I'd rather get on with a new character then travel all the way back to get the old one again. Your not going to care about 5 charcters any more then one without some serious gameplay machanic changes.

Not to mention grinding up 5 inventorys and so forth. Theres little stopping you choosing to switch to anouther settlement charcter now, and people generaly don't.

I would rather explore other means of making one more attached to the charcter, making death feel more important, and so forth.

For a start, making people care more about the world would help. It's easyer to get attached when the game mechanics don't discourage lore hunting, encourage suiciding for professions and make 'growing' your settlement hard, and beyond a point, pointless (Early game lack of professions and seek survivors and rarity of missions comes to mind)

Permadeath itself doesn't prevent attachment.

Exploring options like taking from the setllement pool would indeed be cool, but it would require some serous improvments to the settlements and gaining of survivors. (People are already annoyed by the ocasional lack of choice of charcters, without having to go out and hunt down dozerns of them).

My overall point is I disagree that it's the permadeath itself that prevents atachment as things stand. It's the lack of a lot of things. Customisation would help. Re-naming being easyer will help. I'd love to be avoiding death/loss because it feels important, rather then 'I don't want to do a rescue mission'

Also, any game mechanic (penelty for running out) that hurts the worst players the most is poor design, though the basic idea is intresing.

[Zozma]

I actually like the permadeath system as it is. To me, AVWW is less about the glyphbearer and more about the legacy of the glyph itself, passed down from one bearer to another in a long line of adventurers who can and will face inevitable death. I don't find that the risk of losing my avatar keeps me detatched from it. Quite the contrary; I feel very strongly for it when it gets close to dying, and I start to really care about it when it's gone.

I believe there is something of a consequence to death. You have to learn a new character. Each NPC has different stats and abilities, forcing you to adjust (sometimes slightly, sometimes radically) to a different playstyle. A PC with 430 HP does NOT play the same as a PC with 250 HP. Permadeath keeps the game from becoming stagnant in ways it otherwise would become immediately. Instead of having a single avatar who you have suffered through ennui with, you have a series of avatars that constantly challenge you to master and remaster what would otherwise be a relatively simple combat system.

[khadgar]

I think that they just need to stop calling it permadeath. It sounds so harsh and uninviting.

By all means, make it mean something to the world beyond a box on the continent events window and a ghost that floats around until you thwack it. That guy is dead and gone, he's not coming back.

I would really like if they magiced up a solution to where the people that you select from the character select screen come from. Just say that after time exploded, a bunch of people's minds were left dead, and their bodies were merely husks. So, the survivors are people who still have their consciousness, whereas the brain dead bodies are worthless... except for when they are being controlled by the glyphs. I haven't done the mysteries enough to know what the wind or the glyphs are, so maybe this won't mesh with the current story, but it makes sense to me.