Do we need to be able to run while shooting? (alternative 8-way)

[Professor Paul1290]

Ok, this one might be a bit odd but I think it might be worth considering.

I remember some platformers having 8-way aim, but they had it so that you can't run while shooting (at least not with weapons that would need to be aimed). Instead you stand still for as long as you have the "shoot" button held down and you use the arrow keys to aim diagonally up/down or straight up.

The nice thing about this is that it doesn't use any extra keys, and it tends to make sense right away since you are using the arrow keys to "aim", and it doesn't interfere with the usual method of jumping and shooting. (you'd still be able to jump while shooting)

Of course, the negative to this is that you can't run while shooting. However, being unable to move while attacking isn't that alien of an idea and a lot of games have situations where they briefly "stop" the player in order to use the movement keys for something else.
Also, the idea that you have to stop attacking in order to defend yourself (in this case dodge) is a very common idea in a lot of games in general.

There are other reasons why I think it might fit AVWW 2's case more specifically:
-Most of the slower current enemies take multiple shots to kill, so in a lot of cases you're trying to position yourself in a good spot to get in a lot of shots in a short amount of time anyway.
-When we had 8-way aim, I noticed that in most situations that called for diagonal aim you didn't move while shooting very much.
-It creates this easily understandable need to quickly trade back and forth between offense and defense that I think would work well with a lot of the current enemies (with the possible exception of bats).
-With bosses it creates the need to alternate between dodging and positioning to shoot, so you're either dodging or attacking but usually not both. This opens up opportunities for some interesting patterns.
-It might be a bit cop-out, but it avoids the current animation issues related to running while shooting.

This could also give an opportunity to create more differences between attacks. Area of effect attacks that do not need to be aim could allow for use while on the run, while straight shooting attacks would need to be stop-and-aim. Perhaps some secondary shooting attacks could even retain the current 4-way run-and-shoot behavior as an alternative to have them differ from the primary.

Any thoughts?

[madcow]

This is something I had thought of before. And I have a few different ideas.  As it is there is little reason not to spam down the attack as you move, and the attacks themselves are incredibly fast giving a sort of machine gun feel that feels a little out of place.

I mentioned on mantis, but I'm of the opinion that rapid spells shouldn't be the norm and that most spells faster than .5 seconds (perhaps even slower) ought to be slowed down with the damage increased accordingly, giving more a need to worry about accuracy rather than just run and gun.

Other possibilities might including if firing most spells slowed down your movement speed, or enemy design that punished for misshooting - for instance dead space had enemies that grew more powerful/spawned more enemies/in general punished you for not being accurate about where you shot.

As it is, I feel like I can jut run holding down the fire button without any worry and I'm not sure that's really ideal. I want the game to force precision not spamming.

This is also assuming a slice design that goes better with the aiming style (many current slices don't go well with 4way aiming which is a whole different issue my response is assuming that is addressed)

[Panopticon]

This would probably work. Something needs to be done because the way the slices are currently designed the 4 way aiming has sucked all of the fun right out of the game.

I don't feel like I can objectively test the game at all right now since the death penalty plus the slice design just makes the game a frustration spiral. It's not a fun type of difficulty. It feels cheap and ill-conceived.

If I die taking a calculated risk that's fine with me, and will have me back at it again. If I die because I have to rush a cluster of enemies who are safe only because of the angle in an enclosed environment, hoping my overpowered ammo shot does the trick before they kill me, and hoping that I get enough health and ammo to continue, then I just feel like quitting. And this situation is a constant in my games now, especially on slices with any kind of verticality, where the monsters can fall off their ledges and stack up into instant death traps.

This game has so many great ideas and felt really fun when I got the initial beta. I know there will be growing pains and rough spots in a beta. That's what it's all about. This doesn't feel like that to me at all right now. Now the game feels like it's fundamentally broken in the core of its design. You guys built the action side of this game around the 8 Way Aiming. It needs to come back in some way, or the rest of the game needs to be redesigned around the 4 way aiming in my opinion.

[Pepisolo]

I remember some platformers having 8-way aim, but they had it so that you can't run while shooting (at least not with weapons that would need to be aimed). Instead you stand still for as long as you have the "shoot" button held down and you use the arrow keys to aim diagonally up/down or straight up.

Yes, I remember these, too, firing was kind of like aiming a turret. 

The nice thing about this is that it doesn't use any extra keys, and it tends to make sense right away since you are using the arrow keys to "aim"

Yep, a pretty simple system which would be quite intuitive on both keyboard and joypad.

Of course, the negative to this is that you can't run while shooting. However, being unable to move while attacking isn't that alien of an idea and a lot of games have situations where they briefly "stop" the player in order to use the movement keys for something else.
Also, the idea that you have to stop attacking in order to defend yourself (in this case dodge) is a very common idea in a lot of games in general.

Might be interesting to implement it just to try. You never know, it might work very well.

This could also give an opportunity to create more differences between attacks. Area of effect attacks that do not need to be aim could allow for use while on the run, while straight shooting attacks would need to be stop-and-aim. Perhaps some secondary shooting attacks could even retain the current 4-way run-and-shoot behavior as an alternative to have them differ from the primary.

There you have a VERY interesting idea. Let's just say that you were to give only one of the main abilities this alternate turret-like control system, this could easily be called upon for those tricky sloping sections and you would still maintain the ability to run by using the other attacks. Also this turret attack wouldn't be overpowered due to the movement restrictions it brings. Also in terms of programming time, you would only really need to implement the mechanic and then adjust one of the four mage spells for each class to use it rather than rebalancing the current game from scratch for 4-way or tackling the thorny issue of finding a workable 8 way control system.

I think this is a great idea. Thanks for sharing.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I'd say go the Gunstar Heroes route. You can either have free mode or fixed mode. Free mode, you aim and move in the direction you point. In fixed mode, you only aim in the direction you point while firing. You can't move while shooting. It worked out just fine back then in a fantastic Genesis game. I can't see why it wouldn't work now.

[Misery]

I would say, instead of putting any sort of restrictions on the player.... give them the choice of which sort of control style they'd like to use.

I can see Gunstar's solution working for some, sure.  I know it'd sure drive me up the wall though, and I'm probably not the only one.   I'm impatient as hell and dont want to have to stop moving just to fire at a bat (or whatever.   Much of my firing is done while moving.   I know I would stop using most of the ammo spells in this case (since alot of them require getting quite close, I always did them while charging at the target).   Always found it bloody irritating in Gunstar as well, for that matter;  probably the main reason I never actually took the time to finish that game.


I think that's part of the problem with the 4-way bit in the first place:  It's not actually an OPTION to use it or not, and instead it currently just outright replaces the previous 8-way aiming, when it really doesnt NEED to.


But giving the player as many different control options as possible within the restrictions of "no mouse or 360 aim" is a very good idea.   The more options and available control styles there are, the better it is for the game's playerbase.    They could even have a seperate tutorial room that points out and describes each different control option, like many other games do.


....though I'm still baffled on exactly what was wrong with the previous control scheme anyway.  I dunno, maybe I'm too used to the controllers in general, but simply holding down the shoulder buttons while hitting other buttons never actually seemed like a problem to me.    Though, I guess lack of options WAS one of the problems there.

[LaughingThesaurus]

That's what I meant. Gunstar Heroes has it as an option. Gunstar Super Heroes did it better imo, by enabling you to switch modes by pressing one button to fire instead of another. Seeing as this game has four fire buttons, having four 'fixed fire buttons' wouldn't exactly be an option. So, when you play, enable the characters on character creation to choose one of three options

- Fixed Mode: You will not move while attacking, but will be able to aim while stationary.
- Free Mode: You will move and aim in the direction you press while attacking.
- Four-Way: You will only be able to fire up, down, left, or right. *Warning: The game has not been balanced with this in mind.*

[MouldyK]

....though I'm still baffled on exactly what was wrong with the previous control scheme anyway.  I dunno, maybe I'm too used to the controllers in general, but simply holding down the shoulder buttons while hitting other buttons never actually seemed like a problem to me.    Though, I guess lack of options WAS one of the problems there.

Keyboard players did not like the concept I beleive and people said it was too weird with a gamepad as well. The Steam Forum has a lot of talk about the controls of 8-way being shit and ruining the game for them. I am in the same boat as you saying that the gamepad controls were fine.

Take  read of this if you have not already and have the time: New keyboard controls are horrendous! (Even with controler!). It details people's complaints about it.

I think Arcen Games should just mess around with the control scheme when they are in the final stages of adding more monsters and things, taking ideas from the community to test out, then see people's views of the control schemes in action.

[LayZboy]

I think Arcen Games should just mess around with the control scheme when they are in the final stages of adding more monsters and things, taking ideas from the community to test out, then see people's views of the control schemes in action.

Or just design the other large aspects the game around the controls, instead of this "Keep Free-aiming map/monster design but limit controls" shit they seem to be doing.

[Professor Paul1290]

I'd say go the Gunstar Heroes route. You can either have free mode or fixed mode. Free mode, you aim and move in the direction you point. In fixed mode, you only aim in the direction you point while firing. You can't move while shooting. It worked out just fine back then in a fantastic Genesis game. I can't see why it wouldn't work now.

I like this as well, though I just stuck with one mode only in this example for the sake of simplicity.

I know I would stop using most of the ammo spells in this case (since alot of them require getting quite close, I always did them while charging at the target). 

To clarify, spells that aren't straight projectiles would not be affected by this and would behave as is, and as far as I know most of the ammo (and to an extent a lot of special and secondary) spells are not straight projectiles and would thus act the same as they do now.

[MouldyK]

Limited Context-Based Auto-Angled Shots
- Limited context-based angled shots have been added back into the game.
- If you stand on a slope facing into the slope, and fire your spell straight forward, it will angle up instead (firing directly forward would accomplish nothing, after all).
- If you stand on that same slope facing away from the slope, any shots you fire go forward like normal. However, if you duck, then your shots will go down the slope at an angle instead of doing your normal low-shot.

Gentlemen, opinion on this?

[Pepisolo]

....though I'm still baffled on exactly what was wrong with the previous control scheme anyway.

Actually, I think the truth of this is absolutely nothing at all -- on a joypad. Unfortunately, this was not the case for the keyboard controls. If this were a console game then the most recent change to 4 way aim would pretty much make no sense at all; however, the change is at least understandable as a way to accommodate non-joypad users, after all they are going to make up the majority of the player base. I'm just not convinced all the options were exhausted before this rather drastic change was made.

Regarding the talk about Gunstar Heroes and its firing modes.  Well, before the change to 4 way aim was introduced I always championed the adoption of  a single button to switch firing mode on the fly from fixed shot to free shot. It would have simplified the keyboard controls slightly, although probably not quite enough to fully silence the complaints and the calls for the reintroduction of mouse controls. And really, let's be honest about it, silencing those calls once and for all was the main factor in the decision to change to 4 way aiming.

But let's face facts, this game has 4 way control now and the developer is probably not going to reverse that decision. Notice, I said 4-way control rather than 4-way aim? This is what I find so interesting about the OP's suggestion, he has offered a possible way to have 4 way control and yet still have some element of 8 way aim. If you were to give an ability the property of a fixed 8 way turret-like control -- note, this is not the same as a Gunstar Heroes style fixed control as that would still be using diagonal keys -- then you might just be able to get the best of both worlds. Maybe it's a long-shot, but I'd rather take a risk on this now and see if it works rather than the developers go through the arduous task of rebalancing the game completely.

I just wish I could think of a suitable game that uses the turret-like approach as an example. Maybe I'll do a little research on it some time.

Limited Context-Based Auto-Angled Shots
- Limited context-based angled shots have been added back into the game.
- If you stand on a slope facing into the slope, and fire your spell straight forward, it will angle up instead (firing directly forward would accomplish nothing, after all).
- If you stand on that same slope facing away from the slope, any shots you fire go forward like normal. However, if you duck, then your shots will go down the slope at an angle instead of doing your normal low-shot.

Wrote my post before this announcement. Wow, this may change things up a little. Might as well post what I was writing, though, I guess.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Regarding turret firing controls, Copy Kitty. This is a game that is full of nothing but mass chaos and lots of enemies and 8-way aiming. However, it makes some really wonderful concessions. When you fire, you're locked into your position and can't walk for a short moment, making for turret-like controls with semi-auto firing (ammo is limited, so yeah). There's another kick to it, though. If you are standing still on the ground, your base un-powered unlimited ammo weakest shot auto-aims. In the air, this isn't the case. You can also jump-cancel your firing at enemies.
I freaking love this game. For controls, they've just nailed down the 8 way aiming.

In relevant news, the context diagonal shots at least sound like a pretty nice idea, a reasonable compensation that I'm willing to try. I knew without trying it that the 4-way aiming was going to be terrible. When I just 'know' that stuff, my intuition is usually right. This was the case with Fable 3, Revelations 2012, basically all of the worst games of last year. I didn't need to see or play them to know they were bad. I would hear news, or see a menu screen at most. When I played them, surprise surprise, they were bad. So... I have reason to trust my intuition.
So, brb, updating. I'm optimistic about this one.

[Professor Paul1290]

I kind of like the recent change in that it's better than what we had, but I still feel like it's less than ideal.

There isn't anything overtly wrong with it and its definitely an improvement, but the fact that it's context sensitive is a bit jarring as the behavior is a bit less consistent.

I just wish I could think of a suitable game that uses the turret-like approach as an example. Maybe I'll do a little research on it some time.

I'm sure I've played a couple games that are like this, but my memory is being awful right now and it's driving me crazy. 

[Misery]

Limited Context-Based Auto-Angled Shots
- Limited context-based angled shots have been added back into the game.
- If you stand on a slope facing into the slope, and fire your spell straight forward, it will angle up instead (firing directly forward would accomplish nothing, after all).
- If you stand on that same slope facing away from the slope, any shots you fire go forward like normal. However, if you duck, then your shots will go down the slope at an angle instead of doing your normal low-shot.

Gentlemen, opinion on this?

Needs to allow angled shots while jumping.   Angling down at an enemy wont work if the enemy is already blocking your bullets; usually the solution is something like a quick hop, and THEN firing at the angle, past the shots.

Not to mention that just because the ENEMY is in an angled section, it doesnt mean the PLAYER can go stand on such a tile without getting wrecked.


Though, I need to actually test this yet, this is just my initial thoughts on hearing of it.


EDIT:  Actually, so far, this seems to work out decently enough.   At least with basic spells anyway.   Without the angled aiming as it was before, some spells are still going to be almost unusable like those ones that rise upward after being fired.... I could ONLY ever hit anything with those if firing at an angle, since it changed the arc of the shots, or the Sine spells, those just plain never seem to hit much.   


There's still the issue of the actual spell balance remaining..... things like whips or those bizarro "big slow ball that follows you and doesnt do anything" spells are still completely worthless, but I'm thinking most classes should at least be viable now.

Though, still need to do much more testing yet.