Discussion: New stat: dexterity

[BenMiff]

I prefer the idea of a feet slot in addition to legs slot than the Dex stat; it seems less complicated and more interesting. I'd suggest adding some other jump types as well (some have already popped up in http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7870) to the slot, so there's a variety in jump choices.

I'd agree that Stone Legs should remain as a jump - negation enchant (so it goes to the Feet slot - rename it to Stone things on your feet, maybe?)

Legs could do with some new enchants if this happens, though; off the top of my head, Firing Position (increase damage dealt while crouching and makes it so when you fire when crouched, you stay crouched instead of standing up to fire and then crouching again), Ground Anchors (reduces knockback you suffer), and Swimmer Fins (no reduced mobility when in liquid) would be good additions, since they're both roughly the same power level yet still useful.

If dex is retained, I wouldn't want it to limit horizontal movement when jumping, but the fall damage and detectability parts would be decent.

More mana for Niche Air as a feet slot enchant sounds okay, though I'm inclined to suggest that it should increase (upwards) jump speed as well; that way, its more useful in a jump form as well since it allows you to get out of the way of incoming projectiles better.

[omegajasam]

I'd be against moving Niche Air myself..  I would /much/ rather see more movement types other then double jump, tripple jump (and featherfall?). We don't give a mana bonus if you don't use the other torso slots e.t.c. why would that make sense with things on your feet?

Not to mention the painful amount of switching every time the feet get disabled to get that mana bonus.

Seems to me if you want to be without double jump(or any other buff), you could just not use double jump.

That way leg stays your movement speed / jump speed / other movement improvements and allows intresting combinations.

I'd also like to see some better gating of the jump enchants. So perhaps double jump is late cont 1, triple on cont 2, and screw jump on continent 3 e.t.c.

That would give the sensation of getting more agile over time. Combine that with leg enchants and you'll be able to deal with progressively more  complex bullet patterns.

Honestly, the difference of enjoyment (and cheapness of certain situations) between myself who got double jump late and my friend who got it early was nearly an order of magnitude apart. I couldn't keep up, I couldn't dodge some attacks.. It was just overall less fun.

I love the idea of the better enchants being more risky and skill based though. Tripple jump at the cost of being more vulnerable is cool. Deciding between using an extra jump to dodge or plowing through a bullet would make things very intresting.

[zebramatt]

I've not read most of the above but I wanted to comment on the Screw Attack in Metroid:

Part of the reason this worked, despite trivialising much of the earlier platforming of those games, was because (a) it was tricky to do indefinitely; and (b) you had to use it to access many later areas or secrets or whatever.

(a) made it feel like a learned skill as much as a gifted one; (b) allowed the game to change to accommodate your new abilities.

Neither might be appropriate to Valley, given the proposed route forward (which I've only 3/4 read) but I thought it worth qualifying the comparison.

 

[x4000]

Storm management enchants (I'm thinking of Stonelegs here) should definitely go in the multi-jump enhance slot. Having limited mobility in windstorms is half the (teeth-gnashing, hair-pulling) fun.

That's a good point.

Then if dexterity is to remain, then VinRaith's suggestion of

No, that's the point -- dexterity would not remain.

[keith.lamothe]

rename it to Stone things on your feet

Cement Overshoes.

[Bluddy]

It's too bad. I'm ok with the solution to give these things a defense penalty, but I feel there's a missed opportunity here to differentiate races and give the player some tough choices. OK, so you got your triple jump. Are you willing to make a weaker character or take a specific race that's weaker in other areas in order to use it? Sometimes the answer will be yes and sometimes it'll be no, depending on the goal in mind and what you feel like.

I think this is a great thing to do with a bunch of enchants actually. Want to use an enchant that boosts your attack by 50%? Then use a character specialized for that, who's weaker in other terms.

Oh well.

[x4000]

I think that pursuing alternate ways to customize characters is great, but we can't go about it in a way that feel like the players are getting hit with a big stick.  We just need to figure out a carrot approach.

[Bluddy]

Well, I don't see it as taking much away from players though. Anybody who still wants triple jump is only ever a race or a few upgrades away from it. And let's not forget that RtL is there as well. I think players may react more strongly to giving a penalty for a second/third jump.

How about using DEX, and making it such that the lower your DEX is, the bigger the penalty for using jumps that are out of your league? So you can use everything, but it's a huge risk at levels above what you can easily handle. And it really needs to be a big damage multiplier, even for 1 level above what you can handle -- otherwise the upgrade point isn't worth it. Maybe it's even worth considering making it such that you can use anything, but if you even equip stuff that's higher than your level, you constantly have a damage multiplier on you, and higher the enchant level is vs what you can handle, the bigger the multiplier. So it's a calculated risk rather than a "no you can't use this".

[x4000]

You can rationalize it all you like, but I know he volume of angry players who would show up.

We're already well in progress on this one with he split slot, actually.

[omegajasam]

It also not nessassarly has to be this mechanic where the choice lies.

It's hard, but a lot of varyed sidegrades are usualy very very very fun and make a large amount of replayability. The moment your choosing between things like 'invunerability vs being able t move at more the an turtles pace' people almost always start always choosing the latter becuase the former is not fun and time consuming.

When you trade off attack speed for bigger attacks, or surviability for stealth, or X for Y, where both are either very viable or one if a special challange, then you get a lot more fun.

It's hard as hell to do though.

On the double jumps e.t.c.? The option are realisticaly expanding on the choice (new slot, spell based solution, more verity) or removing it all together. it's /very/ hard to make people choose extra X over 'huge increase in mobility'.

You might get them to choose between extra dakka and an extra 3rd or 4th jump though. Or between a screwattack that rapidly drains mana and double jump. Or risk vs reward of deadlyer jump types

[nanostrike]

Though: an alternative approach did occur to me yesterday, and it's been becoming more attractive to me today.  What if we simply split the Leg enchants into Leg and Feet enchants.  Feet enchants would be anything jumping-related.  Leg enchants would be everything else that's currently leg-related.

My train of thought is:

1. Screw attack never really hurt Metroid, and it was an infinite jump.  And it was darn fun, actually.

I like everything you're saying, but the Metroid player in me is SCREAMING to correct this...


The Space Jump is what gives infinite jumping.  The Screw Attack just makes your jumps to damage.

[x4000]

I like everything you're saying, but the Metroid player in me is SCREAMING to correct this...

The Space Jump is what gives infinite jumping.  The Screw Attack just makes your jumps to damage.

Man!  I can't believe I got that wrong.  It's been too long since I played through that game (all of 4 years), apparently.

[Tallgeese]

Hmmm...

Would you consider moving featherfall to the foot slot? Seems that it fits more with double/triple jump.

In addition, it seems that a new foot slot would add an opportunity for new enchants in general, like a "walk on water as if it were a platform" foot slot enchant, with an innate extra bonus. Perhaps faster run speed. (Or more mana of course.)

[x4000]

I think that featherfall is rather important to go on the legs still since it's something that certain styles of players would lean on despite wanting the extra mobility of jumping.

See here for what we've done so far for next version: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AVWW_-_Post-Launch_Series_1_Release_Notes#Leg_Enchant_Overhaul

[Tallgeese]

Makes sense, sure.

Nice changelog. Though I think you should name the new boot type "Sylvan Boots", since I don't remember any Elves being in this game and the other word is fancier with similar connotations! Hahaha.

No comment on waterwalking?