Author Topic: Discussion: New stat: dexterity  (Read 5873 times)

Offline Bluddy

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Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« on: May 17, 2012, 07:23:52 pm »
Just about everybody seems to agree that double jumps and triple jump need some disincentive to make choosing other leg enchants worthwhile. Originally this was going to be in the form of a reduction in max mana, but that makes low mana races even weaker. So a dexterity stat makes a lot of sense. It'll take character points (base points + whatever upgrade will eventually exist) away from other stats, and some races will have more of it than others. You could specialize

There appears to be some discussion about what effect exactly DEX should have on double/triple jumps. I like the proposed mechanism of disabling those enchants if you don't have the required stats for them. This is like an ARPG where you try to equip a weapon with requirements that are too high for you. The key point here is that it's not enough to make double jump a little weaker with low DEX. It has to be done to the point that a regular jump boost enchant is the better (or only) choice, and in my opinion the only real way to do that is to disable double jump if you don't have the DEX for it, and to disable triple jump if you don't have the DEX for that.

This discussion got swallowed up in the other, mostly unrelated thread. So... opinions?

Offline IIE16 Yoshi

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2012, 07:26:42 pm »
I like the idea that you can't double or triple jump if you lack the dexterity, although the idea of less dexterity meaning less of a boost from double-triple jumps could also work, and might be better recieved, being a soft cap, rather than a big ol' tin of NOPE.

Offline x4000

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2012, 07:28:06 pm »
Agreed -- and glad to move this into another thread.
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Offline x4000

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2012, 07:44:04 pm »
Though: an alternative approach did occur to me yesterday, and it's been becoming more attractive to me today.  What if we simply split the Leg enchants into Leg and Feet enchants.  Feet enchants would be anything jumping-related.  Leg enchants would be everything else that's currently leg-related.

My train of thought is:

1. Screw attack never really hurt Metroid, and it was an infinite jump.  And it was darn fun, actually.

2. Players being able to have increased mobility is darn fun here.  Does it change the nature of the game when they get that?  Sure.  But it's a key thing that makes them feel more heroic and powerful, and taking that away (or never giving it to them in the first place) undercuts that.

3. Having increased jumping mobility also of course can mess with the balance of the combat somewhat... but then again the combat can be balanced for that.  If it's expected that you have double or triple jump by the time you reach the second or third continent, it's not like that's a blocker.  And in terms of the combat balance, you still have to dodge the enemy shots and land your own shots, no matter how many jumps you have.

4. Being able to dodge falling damage with this isn't terribly of much concern to me, and we could actually just change it so that jumping at the last second doesn't help with that or something.  Though that might feel odd.  At any rate, falling damage is one of those "whoops I slipped up" sort of things, not something that is a focal point of the game in the first place.  The only reason it was added was to actually give a sense of height and risk, and you retain that just fine if you know you have to double-jump at the bottom of a pit to solve the falling bit -- in other words, the sense of danger remains, but that's also tied to your own sense of power and skill.  Making things more fun.

5. Similarly, devaluing the wooden platforms is... really a good thing, I think.  Sure, having to place wooden platforms or crates sometimes is interesting.  And some of the missions will always require that.  Certain areas in general will still need those either way, because of the way overhangs are or because you don't know what you're jumping down into, or whatever.  So it's not like their utility goes to zero.  But not having to constantly be placing wooden platforms is actually a GOOD thing.  Just when players are getting sick of that, hopefully they are getting double-jump.  And again, specific missions can always bar the extra jumps as needed (just as specific missions give you extra/infinite jumps).

6. So really, the only problem in my mind at the moment is that double/triple jump are so awesome that nothing else makes sense to use once you get them.  So why not just move them to their own slot, and have done with it?  Then the other leg enchants suddenly are attractive and interesting (maybe the regular jump height enchant stays there, too, to compete with the other stuff that gives you mana increases as well as powersliding or speed or whatever).


Ultimately it comes down to what is most fun.  Is it fun to be limited in mobility?  As Keith has pointed out to me in the past, that's actually one of the least-fun things that a game can do to players.  Players almost always pick speed buffs over anything else.  Why is storm dash so darn popular, right?

If balance is a concern, I still don't think it's a matter of balance between double/triple jump and the other leg enchants: that just makes for an un-fun choice by nature, I think.  And thus the issue of dexterity really becomes moot -- we don't need dexterity, we need another slot.  The question of balance is if the double/triple jump stuff makes the combat too easy (it doesn't affect the hardcore platforming sections at all, recall, since you have to wear a heatsuit which disables them in the first place -- that's the main purpose of the heatsuit, actually, and why it exists from a gameplay point of view).

So in that regard, if we're worried about this being abused in combat, why not do what we did with storm dash?  Each jump you take beyond the first makes you take that much more damage until you land (except in umbra vortex missions or other infinite-jump situations).  Heck, then we could actually introduce quadruple and quintuple jump enchants, and the risk with them would simply be that they would have absolutely immense incoming damage to you if anything touches you on a further-in jump.  That would really be quite a stiff risk/reward if your 5th jump meant that anybody doing damage to you during the 5th jump did 500% more damage or something.  Ouch.  That would keep me more inclined to double-jump most of the time, and occasionally triple jump, right there.

Either way we avoid the need for an extra stat, and instead exchange that for a new enchant slot.  Because, let's face it, a new stat that takes away abilities just isn't going to be well received.  Even if people here on the forums agree now, it's only going to be a matter of days after this hits the non-forumite players before we start getting new players coming in and registering and raging at us.  This is a game about being magically powerful, and I'd rather figure out ways to have the world react to your increased power (and it largely does) rather than kneecapping your power.

(Shields are a different matter, perhaps, but I'm still trying to figure that one out.)
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Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2012, 07:51:33 pm »
I personally like the dex stat idea in its strong form; this is a game about exploring and overcoming a hostile environment, and being able to fly takes away a lot of that. I really dislike the idea of breaking out double jumps into another category. I've been avoiding them out of preference for a while, and at least this way I get some speed buffs (and now extra mana!) as a prize for that. But I'll feel like a real chump if the game rules change to "Nope, you're wrong, use that double jump."

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2012, 07:53:30 pm »
I personally like the dex stat idea in its strong form; this is a game about exploring and overcoming a hostile environment, and being able to fly takes away a lot of that. I really dislike the idea of breaking out double jumps into another category. I've been avoiding them out of preference for a while, and at least this way I get some speed buffs (and now extra mana!) as a prize for that. But I'll feel like a real chump if the game rules change to "Nope, you're wrong, use that double jump."

I think you're definitely in the minority on that one.

Offline x4000

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2012, 08:00:35 pm »
That said, we do want to cater to as many minority playstyles as possible -- if there is a way to reward Martyn for avoiding the extra double/triple jumps in the new slot, that would be ideal.  Again, so he doesn't feel like a chump for being forced to use something that he doesn't like.  It was the same with the old Emit Light spell months ago with some other folks who wanted to use Ball of Light.

But by the same token, we have to make it so that the majority case is what we balance around the most.  And I think that the largest group largely likes not being hassled with platforms all the time once they get the extra jumps -- while at the same time feeling a bit frustrated that they can't try out anything else on their legs.

-----

It might be that the following additional rules are needed to satisfy both camps:

1. The Niche Air Enchant moves to the Feet slot and gains something like a +30 mana bonus.

2. The other Legs enchants lose all their mana bonuses.

3. We introduce some sort of other Feet enchant class that gives you an even larger (+60?) mana bonus as its main feature in exchange for taking no jump-related stuff.  Perhaps it's some sort of minor "jack of all trades" foot armor that slightly gives you incoming damage reduction, slightly higher mana, and slightly higher damage output.  That way it's attractive enough for someone like Martyn, but for the general-case players they can safely ignore those enchants without feeling like they are missing major functionality since it's just a conglomeration of stuff they can get in other slots anyhow.
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Offline LintMan

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 08:06:09 pm »
Though: an alternative approach did occur to me yesterday, and it's been becoming more attractive to me today.  What if we simply split the Leg enchants into Leg and Feet enchants.  Feet enchants would be anything jumping-related.  Leg enchants would be everything else that's currently leg-related.

This sounds great to me.   The other leg enchants are cool, but the extra jump mobility is just too useful to pass up on it, especially for me as I'm in the "I don't even wanna be the next door neighbor of the cousin of the guy".   

Or another thought - what if the double/triple jumps were made into spells like RtL?  Then the enchant slot would be freed up for other stuff.  (This would mean losing all your bonus jump power on each new continent, though.

Offline x4000

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2012, 08:09:27 pm »
(This would mean losing all your bonus jump power on each new continent, though.

That's the main reason I don't want to do that.  Plus the whole mana cost thing, plus the whole cooldown thing, etc.
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Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2012, 08:17:30 pm »
That would satisfy me, X.  Thanks!

Offline x4000

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2012, 08:25:33 pm »
That would satisfy me, X.  Thanks!

Cool!  Generally it seems like there ought to be enough flexibility to satisfy all camps at least pretty well.  There's always some compromises on all ends, goodness knows, but I like things to be what the individual player wants as much as possible.
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Offline MouldyK

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 08:58:16 pm »
Good ideas with the extra Enchant Slot as it can really go a long way to helping people.

Off-topic though for a question: Will Head Enchants ever get a more useful usages? Like something which ups the amount shards gives or something else than Seekers and Diluters?

Offline Jerebaldo1

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2012, 09:11:13 pm »
Hey perfect, I like the current state of this suggestion too!

Offline Vinraith

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2012, 10:16:36 pm »
Storm management enchants (I'm thinking of Stonelegs here) should definitely go in the multi-jump enhance slot. Having limited mobility in windstorms is half the (teeth-gnashing, hair-pulling) fun. :)

Offline Jerebaldo1

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Re: Discussion: New stat: dexterity
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 10:20:47 pm »
Then if dexterity is to remain, then VinRaith's suggestion of

"
- Points in dexterity lower detectability. Not as much as a good enchant, but enough to make it meaningful at high levels.
- Points in dexterity lower fall damage. If the devs don't want fall damage to be a value players interact with outside of the platforming setting, maybe make it lower fall velocity, instead?
- Points in dexterity affect maneuverability while in the air. i.e.: how fast you can move horizontally while you jump."

would be delicious