Disappointed in AVWW

[Misery]

Fundamentally yes, it will always be shooty jumpy, but what else could it be?

This exactly.

I really dont know why anyone thinks it needs to BE something other than this.

It'd be like firing up Contra, and expecting it to be this complicated festival of complexity like some sort of deranged trading card game.    No.   It's freaking Contra.  You jump around, and you shoot the bad guys.  Jump, dodge, shoot.  Jump, dodge, shoot.   Why in the hell would it NEED more than that?   Hint, it doesnt.


This game doesnt really need it either.   The challenge of the combat is all in learning enemy patterns, and figuring out what works best on different foes, or in different situations.   There are ALOT of "shooty" attacks in the game, and that's pretty much as it should be.   The nice thing is, there's ALSO alot of crazy "utility" spells and stuff like that to use that adds more than JUST the shooting elements.  Wether or not you USE them..... is entirely up to you.    I find myself using them alot, actually.   If you're running around JUST using one spell, well.... that's just your way of playing it.  Not everyone is gonna do that.   And even among the many ranged spells, there's variety.   Dont like the fireball spell?   You dont have to use it!  Find the ones that YOU like, and stick with them.  There's no one strategy that's like the bestest thing ever that everyone has to use.  You're free to come up with your own playstyle, and I think that's something the game does very, very well.

The difference between this game and Contra, however, is that Contra was designed from the ground up to provide an engaging combat experience. The levels are designed just so, and the enemies placed carefully in order to keep the player on his toes constantly. Plus, the different weapons and enemy types are purposefully implemented in a way that makes them feel integral to the game.

Compare that near-perfection of design to AVWW. With procedural generation, level design goes out the window. All levels look and play exactly the same. Same thing with enemy placement, and enemy design; 50389283 different espers do not a good game make. Even player weapon choice is absurdly two-dimensional... don't like fireball? Well, sure, you don't have to use it, you could always use lightning balls, or light balls, or earth beams... but wait. These are all exactly the same damn things. There's no choice in playstyle. There's choice in what you want your projectile to look like, sure, but combat is ALWAYS going to devolve into hitting tab and mashing your projectile spell of choice. There's no variety, strategy, or difficulty. (Turning up the difficulty so enemies deal more damage is not good difficulty, it's an easy way to make the game seem difficult.)

I mean, hell, even Metroid and Castlevania (probably the two largest inspirations) manage to make combat and exploration far more rewarding than anything in this game. Granted, it's largely because they're not procedurally generated and therefore more attention can be paid to level design, but they show quite clearly that "jump and shoot" can be engaging in a Metroidvania. AVWW just... isn't.

Even that though, is totally subjective.   I mention Contra *only* as an example because it randomly popped into my mind.  In all honestly I'm not a big Contra fan.

And as for the Metroidvania games...   Now, I love the older Metroid games (NOT the Prime games), and the 2D Castlevanias.   But what has ALWAYS bothered me about them is the combat.   Why?  Because it's RIDICULOUSLY EASY.   Look at the original Metroid.   Once you have a single Energy Tank and the Varia suit, you are basically invincible.  The only two things in the entire game that remain a threat at this point are Kraid, and the actual Metroids, and that's *it*.  The game is super easy.  It does not scale with your power level whatsoever.   This applies to the Castlevania games as well.   I love Symphony of the Night, but there's absolutely zero challenge to it, for the exact same reasons.   I dont think I've EVER come close to dying even once while playing that.  Ever. 

Also...... there isnt any weapon variety in THOSE games much more than this one.  Metroid is ENTIRELY straight beam attacks and the extremely overpowered Screw Attack, and while Castlevania HAS subweapons, you dont NEED them for anything because the games (the Metroid-style ones anyway, not the original quartet) are hyper-easy.   Just whip (or whatever basic attack the central character has) things over and over again, and you're good to go.


THIS game though is providing me with an honest challenge.  Oh, it wont throw much challenge at tier 1, but it doesnt take long to get going.   It is actually capable of causing me to lose, and THAT means I can actually pay attention to it because I'm not bored due to a lack of challenge.

Now I'll be the first to agree that the game spawns WAY TOO MANY FREAKING ESPERS.   They need to work on that.    But still, even those can be a danger in various situations.    Those blasted ice espers for instance.... those guys REALLY DONT HELP when I'm trying to fight one of those awful crashed ships on some screwed up hill on the surface.    But yes, it'll be nice when the game isnt quite as obsessed with spawning espers.

Beyond that though...... really, if you dont like the game, just dont play it.  It's not gonna be for everyone.   There isnt a game out there that IS for everyone.   That happens.    Or you can wait till a few updates happen, and more monster types are added and spells are added/rebalanced.

Anyway, Misery said: " I'm the explorer type, very much so..... playing something like Minecraft, I'll see some cave or other, and it's like "ooooooh a cave I gotta see what's in it""

I don't understand that at all. I mean, I'm not disrespecting your opinion. Seriously, it's cool that you enjoy that. But for whatever reason, I'm not engaged with the exploration in AVWW at all. I think I've been to all the different places and once you seen them once, that's about it. It's not really exciting to me at all. Maybe it's the fact it's 2D since I know that I find MineCraft to be far more interesting than Terraria <shrug>

I'm the type of guy that likes to just explore in Skyrim. It's something I do. Yet I have no desire to do so in AVWW.

I dont think there's any real way to make it make sense..... it's the sort of thing where, either it works for you from the start, or it doesnt.   

Skyrim, for me, honestly wasnt all that great for exploration.  Dont ask me why, it just wasnt.  In all honesty I dont focus too well on that game (one reason being that there's waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much talky in it and I have the attention span of a.... a.... bah, I cant be bothered to finish that sentence).   But for whatever reason, it didn't do it for me, for exploration. 

Minecraft though.... I loooove Minecraft, and I can spend stupid amounts of time exploring even the Nether.   It doesnt matter that *every* area is "red, fiery, has screaming ghasts".  I'll still end up with the desire to see just what's over the next.... er.... lava lake, even if it's just more of the red and fiery with ghasts.  It's hard to explain WHY.  That whole game can do it to me though, and so can this one.   It just "clicks" with me, I guess.   I think it's not going to click with everyone.   Just how it goes, I think.


I will say though, the cave areas specifically could do with some differences between each other.   Buildings are fine..... for example "ruins" are usually filled with mazes, sheds/shacks often just one huge open room..... outdoor areas are also (mostly) fine, grasslands for instance are flat and very open, but often with acid lakes, while the forest areas are crazy and filled with floating islands, stuff like that.     Caves though dont differentiate enough between time shards, though I hear they ARE working on that, so that's good.

[PatDay]

There's some really good comments here in my opinion

First, I agree with a few of the people that said that the combat doesn't feel quite as good as it could be and that AVWW seems to be at a disadvantage to games like Metriod because it's procedurally generated. The platforming doesn't feel at "tight" to me.

Personally, though I willing to let the platform aspects slide because I know it's a huge pain to code and maybe impossible to get to the level of a dedicated platformer game.

So I think the Arcen team should focus on the coding that would net the most gain in improving combat. To me, combat needs to be more dynamic. By that I mean I have to feel like I'm doing more things in combat. Right now it's just dodge and spam the same couple spells. AVWW needs a way to conveniently use more spells and make it more useful in combat. Make the spells more unique as well. RoF, damage, and mana efficiency aren't unique enough. I want spells that behave wildly differently - homing, sliding, explosive, instant, DoT, etc, etc. I'm not saying that doesn't exist now, but I'd like to turn the dial up to 11.

Also, the game doesn't need more enemy types - I kinda don't care about the ones that already exist - but it needs the enemies that do exist to be more unique. For example, I think the tanks in the towns are pretty cool. It's different to just about everything else in the game.

Ok, second thing - I get what you're saying Misery which is why I wouldn't discount your opinion. What makes exploration fun is extremely subjective and I think everyone can make a valid case.  That's why I'm in danger of sounding like a hypocrite because I find exploration really fun in MineCraft even though it's just a RNG. I can't explain why

[tigersfan]

So I think the Arcen team should focus on the coding that would net the most gain in improving combat. To me, combat needs to be more dynamic. By that I mean I have to feel like I'm doing more things in combat. Right now it's just dodge and spam the same couple spells. AVWW needs a way to conveniently use more spells and make it more useful in combat. Make the spells more unique as well. RoF, damage, and mana efficiency aren't unique enough. I want spells that behave wildly differently - homing, sliding, explosive, instant, DoT, etc, etc. I'm not saying that doesn't exist now, but I'd like to turn the dial up to 11.

We're definitely planning on adding this kind of stuff.

Also, the game doesn't need more enemy types - I kinda don't care about the ones that already exist - but it needs the enemies that do exist to be more unique. For example, I think the tanks in the towns are pretty cool. It's different to just about everything else in the game.

Well, we aren't going to be changing the enemies that are there. When we say we're planning on adding more enemies, we don't me we plan on re-skinning the espers and giving them a new name and calling them a new enemy. The plan is to add more enemies that are unique and different. Then have them combine with the existing enemies and with other not-yet-added enemies in new and different ways.

[The Wuggly Ump]

Also, the game doesn't need more enemy types - I kinda don't care about the ones that already exist - but it needs the enemies that do exist to be more unique. For example, I think the tanks in the towns are pretty cool. It's different to just about everything else in the game.

Speaking of unique enemies, I absolutely love the giant green slime thing. We need more enemies like that, with complex behaviors that require strategy and planning and whatnot. I'm a bit tired of the other enemies, but man those green things are clever.

[Bluddy]

Ok, second thing - I get what you're saying Misery which is why I wouldn't discount your opinion. What makes exploration fun is extremely subjective and I think everyone can make a valid case.  That's why I'm in danger of sounding like a hypocrite because I find exploration really fun in MineCraft even though it's just a RNG. I can't explain why

The reason exploration in Minecraft is so exciting is because it's full of possibilities and creativity. It's a cheap trick, but it works. Imagine I dropped you into a land of legos arranged in valleys and mountains, and told you some places had stuff hidden underneath, and let you build whatever you want. That's precisely what Minecraft is. Every valley is exciting because it can inspire you into building something. If you see a valley you might want to make it deeper, or you might want to build it into a donut shape, or... the possibilities are literally endless.

AVWW doesn't have that, and as a result, it has to work really hard to make its procedural generation work. Especially because it starts out at a massive disadvantage: platforming games are all about intricately designed levels, and AVWW has no overseeing designer for each chunk (with a few exceptions). So the questions are always: has the procedural generation justified its cost in terms of losing control of level design, by providing something else? And is it able to produce interesting and meaningful random situations?

[omegajasam]

On making spells more 'interesting' could we see more varied elemental weaknesses? There would be a lot more reason to keep yellow ball and red ball and blue ball if most creatures had a weakness.

[Misery]

Ok, second thing - I get what you're saying Misery which is why I wouldn't discount your opinion. What makes exploration fun is extremely subjective and I think everyone can make a valid case.  That's why I'm in danger of sounding like a hypocrite because I find exploration really fun in MineCraft even though it's just a RNG. I can't explain why

The reason exploration in Minecraft is so exciting is because it's full of possibilities and creativity. It's a cheap trick, but it works. Imagine I dropped you into a land of legos arranged in valleys and mountains, and told you some places had stuff hidden underneath, and let you build whatever you want. That's precisely what Minecraft is. Every valley is exciting because it can inspire you into building something. If you see a valley you might want to make it deeper, or you might want to build it into a donut shape, or... the possibilities are literally endless.

AVWW doesn't have that, and as a result, it has to work really hard to make its procedural generation work. Especially because it starts out at a massive disadvantage: platforming games are all about intricately designed levels, and AVWW has no overseeing designer for each chunk (with a few exceptions). So the questions are always: has the procedural generation justified its cost in terms of losing control of level design, by providing something else? And is it able to produce interesting and meaningful random situations?

Even something like that though, the Minecraft bit, is completely subjective.

I dont build all that much in Minecraft, at least not in comparison to some other players.   I'll make fairly simple towers and some other stuff, usually practical things.   But alot of my time is spent adventuring;  it's not a matter of "inspiration for building", because I dont think I've ever really had it do that for me.  Buildings/structures/machines in my worlds exist to further the cause of adventuring, I generally already know exactly what I want to build well beforehand, and I dont like spending too long on any one project due to a very low attention span.   So I like exploring the environment and clobbering monsters, and stuff like that.   Even without the building element I'd honestly still get into it.

I dunno.  It's hard to explain.   It's the same with Roguelikes, I can seriously play those all day, and the endless new areas to explore are part of what keeps my interest.  In all honestly the randomly-generated games, whatever the genre is, tend to hold my attention MUCH easier than anything else.  Hard to say why, though the promise of endless replayability helps.


Anyway, I really do think that, for the most part, the platforming in the game is fine.    The different surface types have plenty of variation to them, and buildings DEFINITELY have plenty (and are using pre-designed rooms, AND you can make your own rooms if you like).   Caves really seem like the one area that needs work.    Actually the Ocean Shallows caves are a good example of what they COULD be.   It is, so far, the one cave type I've seen that's REALLY different;  I was actually surprised by it, once I finally got there for the first time.    I think adding more such differences to the caves (which they are working on) will make the exploration aspect better than it is (particularly since you generally spend a good amount of time in caves).

[unimural]

I wanted to chime in my own feelings about AVWW. I don't really like the game. I'm glad it was made, I'm glad I bought it, but I can't say I like it. There are several reasons for it, but I suppose it boils down to it not being my kind of a game. I kind of wish it still was a top-down game instead of a platformer. And I always wish games had less but more meaningful combat. But that's neither here nor there. I wish to offer my views on the exploration aspects of the game.

Please note: I've only played 8-10 hours of the game, and I'm only on tier 3 on the first continent.

I am one of those people who feel that the exploration aspect of the game really falls short. A big part of the problem, for me, is that the exploration isn't really related, at all, to the map. I understand that it's sort of the  idea of the game, what with the splintered reality. But it turns out I seriously dislike the fact, that the contents of the square right next to my settlement on the world map is determined by the progress I've made in the game, and not by any intrinsic properties of the location in the world.

Let me try to explain a bit further. The world is vast and the different overworld dungeon types are very similar. The things that differentiate most locations from one another is the monsters and the some of the loot (resources). Because both the monsters and the resources are unlocked, and based on your progress, the world became, to me, this really intangible, samey place. I had no attachment or interest in any of the locations I visited after encountering the type once. I suppose I wish I had more of a sense of position, and some feelings towards any of the particular locations. Exploration, to me, is not only becoming familiar with the world but sort of making the world my own with memories and stories. I haven't felt any of that with AVWW. The exploration feels not a function of location but of progress.

Also, random rambling: I really feel the missions being tied to the continent level is a bad idea. You want to do missions, but you don't want to, because it will make the game more difficult. But you need to, in order to get anywhere. So I found that I spent of lot of time hunting for secret missions etc before allowing the continent to progress to the next tier. I get it, I'm playing it wrong. And I tried to stop myself. But apparently I can't. Tell me that by doing this you will make the game more difficult, and I will avoid it for as long as I can. Perhaps because I'm not very good at it in the first place.

And I kind of feel like the grind lottery of enchantments is the only truly meaningful upgrade path. I dislike it when games are not bringing out tougher opponents but they are countering the players achievements by making old monsters tougher. Perhaps the end result is the same, but psychologically I feel I should be able to come back later and overcome those early monsters with ease. And it makes me feel cheated.

[khadgar]

I am one of those people who feel that the exploration aspect of the game really falls short. A big part of the problem, for me, is that the exploration isn't really related, at all, to the map. I understand that it's sort of the  idea of the game, what with the splintered reality. But it turns out I seriously dislike the fact, that the contents of the square right next to my settlement on the world map is determined by the progress I've made in the game, and not by any intrinsic properties of the location in the world.

Let me try to explain a bit further. The world is vast and the different overworld dungeon types are very similar. The things that differentiate most locations from one another is the monsters and the some of the loot (resources). Because both the monsters and the resources are unlocked, and based on your progress, the world became, to me, this really intangible, samey place. I had no attachment or interest in any of the locations I visited after encountering the type once. I suppose I wish I had more of a sense of position, and some feelings towards any of the particular locations. Exploration, to me, is not only becoming familiar with the world but sort of making the world my own with memories and stories. I haven't felt any of that with AVWW. The exploration feels not a function of location but of progress.

Also, random rambling: I really feel the missions being tied to the continent level is a bad idea. You want to do missions, but you don't want to, because it will make the game more difficult. But you need to, in order to get anywhere. So I found that I spent of lot of time hunting for secret missions etc before allowing the continent to progress to the next tier. I get it, I'm playing it wrong. And I tried to stop myself. But apparently I can't. Tell me that by doing this you will make the game more difficult, and I will avoid it for as long as I can. Perhaps because I'm not very good at it in the first place.

And I kind of feel like the grind lottery of enchantments is the only truly meaningful upgrade path. I dislike it when games are not bringing out tougher opponents but they are countering the players achievements by making old monsters tougher. Perhaps the end result is the same, but psychologically I feel I should be able to come back later and overcome those early monsters with ease. And it makes me feel cheated.

You basically summed up my feelings about exploration & difficulty. When there is almost no reason to come back to a location in the world, you never "learn" that location. You never feel like you're somewhere 'new' if you never see anything 'old'! It's weird, but the biggest sense of familiarity comes from the boss rooms / overlord boss rooms, because I've pretty much learned those... but those are "new" locations! It's a mismatch of what is versus what should be.

As far as difficulty is concerned, you're spot on. What is the point of progress of everything else around you progresses at the same rate you do? As it stands right now, the player's power progression and the enemy progression are inextricably tied due to tier orbs (and to a large part resources granted by missions would help a lot of keeping up), so you always feel just about the same against them. Right after you tier-up, you feel weaker, and right before you're ready to tier-up again, you feel stronger. What gives? The devs have said that it's not about any specific character, that it's about continental progression, which is fine... if it weren't for the fact that the window through which the player interacts with his or her world is a human (or robot). There is no macrogame control. You feel tied to your character, not in his name or portrait, but in the limited interactions you have with the world. I am my character, not a continent. I am more concerned with getting enchants to boost myself up (because I'm I'm not powerful enough, how can I survive?) or some Earth Essence rather than looking for a Center for Technozoologicism, or what have you. Because of this, it always feels like the character, MY character, is not gaining in strength as the world gets stronger, and if the Overlord wasn't set to tier 5 from the start, I wouldn't even bother leveling up the continent to kill him.

[LayZboy]

One of the biggest problems I had with this game was the overlords. It's not the battle challenge or anything, it's why they are even there. I never feel as though "I have to kill this badguy cus he's caused blah blah blah to happen, and that don't fly" and don't really feel the effects of an overlord being on said continent. It really just makes me think that the character that I'm playing is the evil overlord, going around killing all these helpless critters and forcing people I "rescue" to work in my towns, and do powers for me.

[zebramatt]

One of the biggest problems I had with this game was the overlords. It's not the battle challenge or anything, it's why they are even there. I never feel as though "I have to kill this badguy cus he's caused blah blah blah to happen, and that don't fly" and don't really feel the effects of an overlord being on said continent. It really just makes me think that the character that I'm playing is the evil overlord, going around killing all these helpless critters and forcing people I "rescue" to work in my towns, and do powers for me.

By gum, I actually feel pretty good about that spin on things!

MWAHAHAHA.

[Bluddy]

I think (but could be completely wrong) that there's a plan to bring back the strategy element with the overlord doing stuff. I Mantis'ed a possible way to do this (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7480). This would go a long way towards making you feel like the overlord is more than a passive goal.