Disappointed in AVWW

[mrhanman]

Grinding in and of itself isn't a bad thing.  You had to grind the crap out of some old school RPGs - even the legendary Final Fantasy IV.  When I got past the first continent, I did have to "grind" a bit on occasion for consciousness shards.  I happen to like the combat and exploration, so it was fine with me.

As for the controls, get a Razer Naga.  You'll be glad you did!  Not that you should have to buy a new mouse for a game, but you'll love it anyway.

[Misery]

It DEFINITELY has a grind.  I've had to grind consciousness shards for Wind Shelters, Upgrade Orbs for new characters, Glyph Transferrance Scrolls, ect.

It takes me right out of the flow of the game to have to go and grind through a bunch of same-looking buildings until I stock back up.

Thinking about this further, I really think the game only has a grind...... if the player plays it in a certain way.

The idea seems to be that you should be picking up these items..... the shards and upgrade stones and other things..... as you go through doing various other tasks.   But some players probably dont do this.

In my case, I havent had to grind for anything.  EVER.  I'm the explorer type, very much so..... playing something like Minecraft, I'll see some cave or other, and it's like "ooooooh a cave I gotta see what's in it".   The fact that the answer is always "stone, ores, and pain" doesnt stop me from having to do it.    This game is the same.   Say I want, oh, I dont know, opal stones.  I'll jump into an area, and start heading towards the section with the cave entrance.

But, me being the way I am, I'll almost DEFINITELY jump into a few buildings on the way and hit up some stash rooms.  I dont HAVE to do this..... but I like exploring and I never know just what I might find in there (and sometimes, I'll find very pleasant surprises, like a strong enchant just lying on the floor).   I'll do that, and THEN I'll hit up the caves once I'm over there.    By doing this, I'm pretty much collecting all of these little doodads AS I go along.   I dont need to make "collect consciousness shards" an actual GOAL, because I'm slowly gathering them ALL THE TIME in the course of going for OTHER goals.    So I never grind, at all.   I do use the shards for things.... so it's not like I'm hoarding them and never using them.... but even with that I still have TONS of them.   I dont need to worry about them.    The same goes with upgrade stones, I end up with a nice, easy natural progression for any character as I go about other tasks.

The game really seems to be designed with that sort of idea in play.    But if you do it the other way..... skip all them buildings, or whatever..... you're not picking up random shards as you go along, and then when it comes time to use a guardian power, well...... you find yourself low on resources.


I've no idea what can be done about that sort of thing, but that's my views on it, after taking some time to think about it.

[Wanderer]

I didn't see anyone answer your question about unlocks. Sorry if anyone did and I just missed it.

You're absolutely correct in how unlocks work.  Until you've achieved the goal set out for the unlock (in Coral's case, 3rd dungeon level in the shallows) you will never be able to collect coral, it simply won't appear.

This actually performs a simple task of limiting the volume of things thrown at you at once.  If it's not unlocked most players will look for things that are unlocked, or go perform that specific unlock.

[zebramatt]

Incidentally, on the controls, there are also keybinding options to switch to the next/previous inventory row. With a bit of prior set up (inc. replicating the spells you always want access to in different rows) you should be able to get a similar effect to what you're after that way as well.

[Reactorcore]

Shallow Action Mechanics - I think there are two things at issue here. On is that I think we just don't have enough enemies yet, but as we add more, things will get more and more complex as you progress, making the combat feel more like the obstacle it's supposed to be.

Simply saturating the game with more content is not going to fix the shallowness of the combat.

[khadgar]

Shallow Action Mechanics - I think there are two things at issue here. On is that I think we just don't have enough enemies yet, but as we add more, things will get more and more complex as you progress, making the combat feel more like the obstacle it's supposed to be.

Simply saturating the game with more content is not going to fix the shallowness of the combat.

Not entirely true. While I doubt anything spectacular will be added, new variety (beyond just reskins and sound file swaps and the like) can provide more complex challenges. For example, when urban crawlers were added, they had a feel entirely their own. Can't hurt them from the front effectively, you have to strike low or circle behind. It feels more like a tactical combat, whereas all the other enemy types are just strafe-jump and shoot. More enemies like that brings depth to combat. Fundamentally yes, it will always be shooty jumpy, but what else could it be?

[tigersfan]

Shallow Action Mechanics - I think there are two things at issue here. On is that I think we just don't have enough enemies yet, but as we add more, things will get more and more complex as you progress, making the combat feel more like the obstacle it's supposed to be.

Simply saturating the game with more content is not going to fix the shallowness of the combat.

Not entirely true. While I doubt anything spectacular will be added, new variety (beyond just reskins and sound file swaps and the like) can provide more complex challenges. For example, when urban crawlers were added, they had a feel entirely their own. Can't hurt them from the front effectively, you have to strike low or circle behind. It feels more like a tactical combat, whereas all the other enemy types are just strafe-jump and shoot. More enemies like that brings depth to combat. Fundamentally yes, it will always be shooty jumpy, but what else could it be?

Exactly. As more of those types of enemies are created, the combat will get more and more complex. Not dissimilarly to AI War.

[Misery]

Fundamentally yes, it will always be shooty jumpy, but what else could it be?

This exactly.

I really dont know why anyone thinks it needs to BE something other than this.

It'd be like firing up Contra, and expecting it to be this complicated festival of complexity like some sort of deranged trading card game.    No.   It's freaking Contra.  You jump around, and you shoot the bad guys.  Jump, dodge, shoot.  Jump, dodge, shoot.   Why in the hell would it NEED more than that?   Hint, it doesnt.


This game doesnt really need it either.   The challenge of the combat is all in learning enemy patterns, and figuring out what works best on different foes, or in different situations.   There are ALOT of "shooty" attacks in the game, and that's pretty much as it should be.   The nice thing is, there's ALSO alot of crazy "utility" spells and stuff like that to use that adds more than JUST the shooting elements.  Wether or not you USE them..... is entirely up to you.    I find myself using them alot, actually.   If you're running around JUST using one spell, well.... that's just your way of playing it.  Not everyone is gonna do that.   And even among the many ranged spells, there's variety.   Dont like the fireball spell?   You dont have to use it!  Find the ones that YOU like, and stick with them.  There's no one strategy that's like the bestest thing ever that everyone has to use.  You're free to come up with your own playstyle, and I think that's something the game does very, very well.

[bvchaosinc]

Yes more baddies like the urban crawlers would go a long away to help combat feel interesting as they are basically the only interesting non-boss in the game currently.  However I think time spent on making more interesting spells and flasher looking spells would go further.

Those of you that don't feel the grind, do you not build many wind shelters, or only upgrade a one or two spells?  What is it that your out in the world doing that you happen to stumble across all the resources you need to not fall horrible behind in tier level, or keep up with town development?  Do you never upgrade your toon or only give them a very small amount of upgrades? 

I can't even begin to understand how were are playing the game so differently that you don't see it as a string of repetitive fetch quests linking to gather the missions.

[PatDay]

There's been some more really good replies.

As for all the responses to the controls, I've got a programmable Razor keyboard. I'll try playing around with it and the the in-game controls customization to see if I can't get something I like. Maybe the real fundamental issue is that AVWW feels like a console shooter/console game to me - like a suped up Contra. So maybe I should try to hook up a xbox controller to my PC and see if that works.

As for the repetitiveness of AVWW, I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with people that don't think the game is grindy. Let me tell you about my game progress:
1) I started out ignoring the encyclopedia. I just wandered around sight-seeing and exploring about everything in each region I entered. I got to T2 this way without having any problem and was able to get a couple T2 long-range attack spells.

2) Then at T3, I realized that I was missing key materials and I started trying to focus on them to get what I wanted. I would specifically go to the places needed and bypass stuff that wasn't needed. Now, that's not to say I didn't collect mats or anything on these trips. I'd certainly take any items of opportunity alone the way.

3) Stuck. I'm at a point where I can't do anything. My spells are falling behind, my mission options suck (I'm looking at you "Fix the Anachronism")  and I'm tired of running thru the same areas again and again looking for the stuff I need.

Anyway, Misery said: " I'm the explorer type, very much so..... playing something like Minecraft, I'll see some cave or other, and it's like "ooooooh a cave I gotta see what's in it""

I don't understand that at all. I mean, I'm not disrespecting your opinion. Seriously, it's cool that you enjoy that. But for whatever reason, I'm not engaged with the exploration in AVWW at all. I think I've been to all the different places and once you seen them once, that's about it. It's not really exciting to me at all. Maybe it's the fact it's 2D since I know that I find MineCraft to be far more interesting than Terraria <shrug>

I'm the type of guy that likes to just explore in Skyrim. It's something I do. Yet I have no desire to do so in AVWW.

[Reactorcore]

Shallow Action Mechanics - I think there are two things at issue here. On is that I think we just don't have enough enemies yet, but as we add more, things will get more and more complex as you progress, making the combat feel more like the obstacle it's supposed to be.

Simply saturating the game with more content is not going to fix the shallowness of the combat.

Not entirely true. While I doubt anything spectacular will be added, new variety (beyond just reskins and sound file swaps and the like) can provide more complex challenges. For example, when urban crawlers were added, they had a feel entirely their own. Can't hurt them from the front effectively, you have to strike low or circle behind. It feels more like a tactical combat, whereas all the other enemy types are just strafe-jump and shoot. More enemies like that brings depth to combat. Fundamentally yes, it will always be shooty jumpy, but what else could it be?

Adding new enemies is only one aspect, but its not enough on its own. You can add as many varied enemies with new mechanics to them as you want, but as long as the fundamental core of the combat is shallow as it is now, all that work for extra monsters won't matter much beyond 5 seconds when you first encounter them and understand how they work. Once the player has figured out what he is dealing with, the excitment of a new enemy type vanishes as fast as it came and turns into a routine, which is ultimately the same old grindy and boring combat it was before.

Unfortunately the solution to this is not easy at all and requires a heavy overhaul of character, environment and weapon behaviour design. I'm not convinced Arcen is going to do such an undertaking just when the game is released or even after a year or two. Probably its better off creating a new game from scratch with the right design, but I don't know.

I've already uninstalled AVWW, so I don't care as much, but I will keep tracking Arcen on what they do next and if they do come up with something, then I'll absolutely give it another try, but for now AVWW just ain't fun to play.

[postmanmanman]

Fundamentally yes, it will always be shooty jumpy, but what else could it be?

This exactly.

I really dont know why anyone thinks it needs to BE something other than this.

It'd be like firing up Contra, and expecting it to be this complicated festival of complexity like some sort of deranged trading card game.    No.   It's freaking Contra.  You jump around, and you shoot the bad guys.  Jump, dodge, shoot.  Jump, dodge, shoot.   Why in the hell would it NEED more than that?   Hint, it doesnt.


This game doesnt really need it either.   The challenge of the combat is all in learning enemy patterns, and figuring out what works best on different foes, or in different situations.   There are ALOT of "shooty" attacks in the game, and that's pretty much as it should be.   The nice thing is, there's ALSO alot of crazy "utility" spells and stuff like that to use that adds more than JUST the shooting elements.  Wether or not you USE them..... is entirely up to you.    I find myself using them alot, actually.   If you're running around JUST using one spell, well.... that's just your way of playing it.  Not everyone is gonna do that.   And even among the many ranged spells, there's variety.   Dont like the fireball spell?   You dont have to use it!  Find the ones that YOU like, and stick with them.  There's no one strategy that's like the bestest thing ever that everyone has to use.  You're free to come up with your own playstyle, and I think that's something the game does very, very well.

The difference between this game and Contra, however, is that Contra was designed from the ground up to provide an engaging combat experience. The levels are designed just so, and the enemies placed carefully in order to keep the player on his toes constantly. Plus, the different weapons and enemy types are purposefully implemented in a way that makes them feel integral to the game.

Compare that near-perfection of design to AVWW. With procedural generation, level design goes out the window. All levels look and play exactly the same. Same thing with enemy placement, and enemy design; 50389283 different espers do not a good game make. Even player weapon choice is absurdly two-dimensional... don't like fireball? Well, sure, you don't have to use it, you could always use lightning balls, or light balls, or earth beams... but wait. These are all exactly the same damn things. There's no choice in playstyle. There's choice in what you want your projectile to look like, sure, but combat is ALWAYS going to devolve into hitting tab and mashing your projectile spell of choice. There's no variety, strategy, or difficulty. (Turning up the difficulty so enemies deal more damage is not good difficulty, it's an easy way to make the game seem difficult.)

I mean, hell, even Metroid and Castlevania (probably the two largest inspirations) manage to make combat and exploration far more rewarding than anything in this game. Granted, it's largely because they're not procedurally generated and therefore more attention can be paid to level design, but they show quite clearly that "jump and shoot" can be engaging in a Metroidvania. AVWW just... isn't.

[TechSY730]

Stuff AVWW lacks is better reactiveness of entities (more detail of interaction between enemies, players and projectiles), more detail of character control (more momentum based movement, crouch walking, sliding, dodge moves, dynamic spell attacks (charge up spell power, movement affects spell power etc.))

(Note, when I say room generator, I mean generation of areas in general, outdoor, indoor, caves, et al)

Agreed.
Some of this is indeed "throwing new content" at it.
Some of it can be solved by introducing new mechanics and working them into the existing stuff (by no means an easy feat). For example, I would also like to see momentum becoming a bigger factor in this game, for players, shots, and enemies.
Also, aside from the human built rooms that get seeded every now and then, environmental challenges can be tricky as the positioning is random-ish. Sure, you can tack more interesting behavior into individual background-elements, but it is hard to do any sort of "positional" based puzzle. Though with more interesting ways the environmental objects can behave and interact, this sort of stuff may arise naturally in some generated rooms. (see below as well)

and less predictable world behaviour (Interiors in houses are completely not what the house advertises, monster are predictably always present in an area as in EVERY AREA, every biome and every house layout is always the same in terms of content despite the procedural generations, so its never a suprise what you will encounter next and it feels like it renders the fancy procedural generation mechanics obsolete or even annoying).

For making interior/cave areas more interesting, this has already been suggested quite often. Some of it is art (much of the art assets, especially in caves, are shared through all regions, making them look "same-ish"). Some of it is layout (the room generator does not have many different kinds of "cave rooms" like there are "building rooms"). Some of it is a lack of intelligence (like figuring out how to randomly create clever platforming or environmental puzzles, instead of the more or less "samey" way it tends to make parts of rooms). Some of it is a lack of variety (there aren't that many kinds of "room types" yet, IMO, there needs to be more)
And yea, making the room generator care about the building-type more is a good idea.
So yea, the room generator needs lots of work. (It's good, but more is needed)
Also, having more built-in human built rooms would help with this, and allow some of them to apply to caves and outdoor areas too (though special work will be needed to make them still feel "natural" even though they are human-built)

For the monster thing. Some of it is a lack of monster types. For example, skelebots in many places are "placeholders" for enemy types until more region appropriate enemies are created. Unfortunately, this gives the (somewhat correct) impression that enemy variety among region types is currently not very good, and worse gives the (incorrect) impression that this was intentional.
Also, varying enemy types by region or possibly even by "chunk"/room as well as by region type may help with making region uniqueness feel better.

[khadgar]

Adding new enemies is only one aspect, but its not enough on its own. You can add as many varied enemies with new mechanics to them as you want, but as long as the fundamental core of the combat is shallow as it is now, all that work for extra monsters won't matter much beyond 5 seconds when you first encounter them and understand how they work. Once the player has figured out what he is dealing with, the excitment of a new enemy type vanishes as fast as it came and turns into a routine, which is ultimately the same old grindy and boring combat it was before

I completely disagree, based on my experiences. Just the other day, I was going into the lava flats for the first time ever, and I started encountering the utahraptors, which can jump to get you, sometimes several times. So, according to your theory, once I figured out how to fight them, it would be a cakewalk? Not so. You couldn't always count on being able to jump over them, terrain dictated if you could get the height to clear them or not, and if you didn't plan a route to move before fighting them, it would be fruitless (this was in a windstorm btw). And indoors? Don't get me started. The exact placement of each raptor in the room made each room compeltely different. If the raptor was at the end of a hallway with a door behind it, I would need to duck into a door between now and when I reached them, and just ignore them, less they hit me and trap me in a corner. If they were at the top of a stairwell, I would have to engage EXACTLY at the apex of their travel time, or else they would hit and kill my before I defeated them. If they were  at the top of a ladder, it was a harrowing amount of baiting to get them to come down but dodge out of the way at the last second to avoid being smooshed under their fall.

Of course, this all only applied because I was on a high difficulty and in a windstorm, so each battle was really a life or death situation. One wrong move and I was hosed. If raptors were just skelebot reskins, it would be boring, but because they could interact with the environment in such a way, it made everything more complex. Not saying more enemies need jumping, just that it didn't matter that I "Learned the pattern" of the utahraptors, it was still very fun and VERY hard!

EDIT: I don't disagree that the majority of the surface-chunk combat is pretty shallow, in that it devolves into finding the best angle of attack and just holding down an attack button while jumping over the lighting balls sliding across the ground. Cave combat is a bit more interesting, because you have to place a large portion of the platforms you are going to be using, sometimes while in combat. Sometimes the cave conspires against you, and there's just no good place to fight a shadow bat. Water combat, is pardon my pun, shallow. It's like cave combat, except your platforms try to escape from you... Thanks, platforms, fat lot of good you'll do me now. Building combat is the most fun and varied to me. Sharp angles, weird corners and hidey holes, and the ability to do room transitions often if needed make it the best. It probably has something to do with most of the rooms being handcrafted...

[Professor Paul1290]

Those of you that don't feel the grind, do you not build many wind shelters, or only upgrade a one or two spells?  What is it that your out in the world doing that you happen to stumble across all the resources you need to not fall horrible behind in tier level, or keep up with town development?  Do you never upgrade your toon or only give them a very small amount of upgrades? 

I can't even begin to understand how were are playing the game so differently that you don't see it as a string of repetitive fetch quests linking to gather the missions.

I can't really speak for everyone and I pretty sure not everyone plays the way I do.

I usually build enough wind shelters to uncover either a decent chunk of each region I go to frequently and I usually try to maintain the current tier for two projectile spells and maintain one tier behind on maybe three other offensive spells. (usually two projectiles at current tier, one summon at minus 1 tier, and one area of effect at minus 1 tier). This doesn't count spells that I use that don't need to be kept upgraded, as those generally don't need too many mission ingredients.

I tend to plan at least one or two tiers ahead when I decide on what missions and secret missions I take on, so I usually have a good idea each non-mission material I need to complete spell recipes.

I explain in this thread some of how I usually go about actually getting them:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,10397.0.html
In addition to what I describe in that thread, generally when I go out and enter a region, I'm going out to get at least two or more "important items" and anything less important I pick up along the way. I also remember areas where I have a lot of warp gates unlocked so when I do make mistakes and come up short on resources, I usually just have to make a short trip into a region, warp to the appropriate spot, and I'm often come out only a room or two away from what I need.

I also tend to try to get what I need for "Seek Resources" and "Seek NPC" Guardian Powers so that I can use them in later tiers, which significantly cuts down on the need to look for secret missions for Tier 3 and onwards, especially as spells start using more resources.

As for upgrades, I usually only do five upgrades at most on a character, maybe less depending on what the base stats of the character happen to be. I do occasionally do the maximum upgrades for a character, but when I do it's usually for a special purpose. Characters that I'm going to use for a Lieutenant or Overlord, for example, get more upgrades.

I don't know if that helps any, but that's how I usually approach this. Again, I don't really speak for everyone.



On the other hand, regardless of what I've stated, it seems that enough people feel the game has a lot of grind that it should be considered an issue. Personally I don't see very much grind, but then again just saying "play like I do" isn't the ideal solution.