Design Notes: New Health System

[x4000]

This topic has been on hiatus for a while, while the more complex mana redesign, multiplayer, and so on were being discussed.  But yesterday I sat down to look at the original topic on this subject, and to do a concrete design that I'd go ahead and implement and then get more feedback on.

After all, the general consensus seemed to be pretty darn consistent in the main on this one: "health tanks" as a concept were really popular, and mostly there were just variations and twists on that core concept.

The core idea that I like best is the variant suggested by Underfot, but zebramatt, Hearteater, FallingStar, Teal_Blue, and Olreich all contributed ideas to a discussion that I think is best summed up by this post by Hearteater.

So, what's the actual design I'm thinking of right now?

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1. The health bar will mostly remain like it currently is, but instead of showing you the actual value of health that is remaining, it will show a percentage.  Come to think of it, for purely visual purposes we'll probably do the same with enemies.  If you want to see your actual health numbers, or that of an enemy, then the tooltips over the enemy in pause mode, or over your health bar anytime, would continue to show the real values.

2. Health potions will be removed from the game.  As you explore around the world, you will find "vitality stones" instead.  They will probably replace EXP containers as being the thing you find at the end of long hallways, as well as being something you can find in stashes and other places.  These will be tier-less, like EXP containers were, but they will also not be seeded into areas that are too many regions below your current civ level.

3. When your health is <= 100%, you can use 4 vitality stones to increase max health to 200%, and add 100% to your current health.  So if you were at 87/100% health you would move to 187/200% health.

4. If you are at 200% max health, then using 8 vitality stones would take you to 300% max and add 100% to your current health.  If you're at 300% max, using 16 vitality stones takes you to 400% max, etc (when you're at 400%, using 32 vitality stones takes you to 500% max; at 500% max, using 64 vitality stones takes you to 600%, and so on).

5. Any time you visit an Ilari or similar, they will heal you up to 100% as they do now (if you are lower than 100%).  Trash mobs' attractive health drops will do a small bit of healing that can cumulatively take you all the way back up to whatever your current health maximum is, though.

6. If your health ever drops below a given multiple of 100% (say that you were at 600% max health, and you drop down to 499% current health), then your max health goes down to the nearest multiple of 100% (so, in this example, 500%).

7. Critically, you won't be able to use vitality stones anywhere except in settlements.  So you can't just keep spamming 4 vitality stones to jump from 10% health back to 110% during a boss fight, or on a long expedition.  Health firmly becomes the "how far can I travel" metric.  You have to come in with whatever max health cap you think will let you beat a boss or a mission, and then actually beat them within that health cap (using trash mobs from the boss room for attractive health drops is your only way to get more health during the actual boss fight itself).

8. Just to clarify, when you are "using 4 vitality stones" or "32 vitality stones" or whatever, it's just one click.  You'd see all your vitality stones in your inventory in one stack, and you'd right-click them to use them, and it would deduct whatever number of them are needed to take you to the next max health tier.  And the tooltip would tell you in advance what number would be required to raise your health to what percentage.

9. The maximum of your health bar would never shrink while you were in a chunk.  Possibly not until you save/reload your game or get a new character, actually.  When you lose capacity, that part of the health bar will be grayed out, and the "full health" style of display won't adjust to fill the entire bar until the later trigger points already mentioned.

10. Vitality stones will be more plentiful in higher-tier chunks, giving you an incentive to explore into higher regions (with EXP going away and some of the other changes, that was definitely getting lost; though missions can also be structured by region level to give greater or lesser rewards).

Thoughts?

[Bluddy]

So it sounds like the main change is to allow uses of multiple health potions with one click -- you can only heal up to specific quanta in your health bar. I assume that won't happen if you only have a few health potions left ie. you'd just heal up with whatever you have?

What's the plan to limit hoarding of health potions (or whatever they'd be called)? Will the cooldown on healing still be used?

[Hearteater]

Obviously I like the idea, but here are a few questions/concerns:

On #3, it sounds like if I'm at 100% health, adding a health tank puts me at 200%/200% current/max health.  But if at say 89% current health, I end up at 100%/200%.  Based on #6, does that mean if I lose 1% health down to 99%/200% that my new health tank breaks, putting me at 99%/100% immediately?

Maybe #3 should just work as, current health and max health increased by 100%.  So if I'm at 10% health, I end up at 110%/200%.  For consistency, I'd say do the same with point #4.  If I'm at 187%/200% and add a health tank, I end up at 287%/300%.

On the purely visual front (point #1), consider using a system like League of Legends with a health bar broken into blocks, one for each 100%.  Look at the health bars in this image that are over top of the character's heads (not the bar on the bottom of the screen.

[zebramatt]

I have three comments:

• On screen display of current number of Health Tank Components - so that I don't have to either (a) keep looking in my inventory for how many I've got or (b) take up a slot on the action bar so I can see them all the time
• Shortcut key for using a relevant number of current Health Tank Components - for the same reason as 1
• The name "Health Tank Components" doesn't really fit the rest of the design - I'd be tempted to go with something like "Vitality Stones" or similar

[x4000]

So it sounds like the main change is to allow uses of multiple health potions with one click -- you can only heal up to specific quanta in your health bar. I assume that won't happen if you only have a few health potions left ie. you'd just heal up with whatever you have?

What's the plan to limit hoarding of health potions (or whatever they'd be called)? Will the cooldown on healing still be used?

Well, there would really be no health potions in the traditional sense.  Instead it's kind of like breakable health containers in the metroid sense, mixed with heart containers in the Zelda sense.  In terms of hoarding health container pieces, there's nothing planned to prevent hoarding them -- hoard away!  And for that matter, no substantial cooldown on them, either, that I can think of.  There might be some trickiness (particularly in multiplayer) where we have to really make these only usable at settlements or something to avoid abuse with players entering and leaving boss fights, though.

The idea here is making this the "how long can I stay out" meter, combined with bonuses for exploring and bonuses for not taking a lot of damage.  But in general making it so that the only in-the-field healing is coming from trash mobs.

On #3, it sounds like if I'm at 100% health, adding a health tank puts me at 200%/200% current/max health.  But if at say 89% current health, I end up at 100%/200%.  Based on #6, does that mean if I lose 1% health down to 99%/200% that my new health tank breaks, putting me at 99%/100% immediately?

Maybe #3 should just work as, current health and max health increased by 100%.  So if I'm at 10% health, I end up at 110%/200%.  For consistency, I'd say do the same with point #4.  If I'm at 187%/200% and add a health tank, I end up at 287%/300%.

Oops, that was a typo, but I like your refinement there.  Will add notes about that.

On the purely visual front (point #1), consider using a system like League of Legends with a health bar broken into blocks, one for each 100%.  Look at the health bars in this image that are over top of the character's heads (not the bar on the bottom of the screen.

That puts a really finite cap on the amount of health containers you could have, unfortunately.  I'd rather just handle this with the numbers, I think, but something like that could be retrofitted in if need be.

[mrhanman]

I'm still debating which graphic of these to use

[x4000]

Based on the comments above, I've heavily reworded all 8 of the points, and also have put in some changes, specifically:

1. That these are called vitality stones now.

2. That you can ONLY use them in settlements no matter what.

I have three comments:

• On screen display of current number of Health Tank Components - so that I don't have to either (a) keep looking in my inventory for how many I've got or (b) take up a slot on the action bar so I can see them all the time
• Shortcut key for using a relevant number of current Health Tank Components - for the same reason as 1
• The name "Health Tank Components" doesn't really fit the rest of the design - I'd be tempted to go with something like "Vitality Stones" or similar

Great point on the vitality stones, I like that name a lot and that would allow for a new graphic that would be less confusing to new players than trying to reuse an existing graphic to mean something entirely else!

Regarding the on-screen displays to see how many vitality stones you have, or hotkeys to use the next tier of vitality stones, that's really missing the point of these.  These are a major-upgrade sort of thing that you can periodically use, not something that is actually used in general in the field.  Initially I had it so that you could use them in the field since that way you could upgrade yourself as soon as you collect more vitality stones, but in retrospect I feel like that causes more problems than it solves.  If this is the "how long can I stay out in the wild" meter, then having that meter be adjustable in the wild just leads to perpetual expeditions which is really not the idea.  At any rate, so on-screen displays or keyboard shortcuts really would be pointless in that context because in town you just open up your inventory and take a look at what you have, versus needing to use these with any sort of speed in the field.

I'm still debating which graphic of these to use

  I'm sure I wouldn't get into any sort of trouble about that, right?

[Hearteater]

Actually, doubling putting a pretty hefty cap on it.  10 tanks would require 2044 health tank parts, and if you ever dropped below 900% health you'd lose a tank that will cost 1024 parts to replace!  In short, tank damage is so easy (too easy probably*) that I doubt anyone will get much above 8-9 tanks.  Also, in LoL you can have 4000 health (each box represents 100 hp) which is 40 boxes.  It still works even with that large number of boxes.  In fact it is very easy to judge relative toughness of characters by looking at density, even if you can't count the number of actual boxes once you get over about 9-10.  I'd argue that I can judge the relative maximum health based on box density faster than if I saw two numbers.

* Thinking about it further, I think health tank damage might need to be a little less extreme.  Maybe have you lose a tank every time you tank 200% of your base hp in damage.  Represent this with a thin red link under the health bar that builds up, and when it is full you lose a tank.  Losing the overflow health is optional and I could see it going either way.

[x4000]

Some more rewording of the original topic for clarity and brevity.

Actually, doubling putting a pretty hefty cap on it.  10 tanks would require 2044 health tank parts, and if you ever dropped below 900% health you'd lose a tank that will cost 1024 parts to replace!

This is true, but also kind of the idea in a lot of respects.  I thought you were the one originally suggesting this, but maybe it was someone else in the context of mana or... something.  There's been a lot of discussion, it gets hard to keep track. 

In short, tank damage is so easy (too easy probably*) that I doubt anyone will get much above 8-9 tanks.  Also, in LoL you can have 4000 health (each box represents 100 hp) which is 40 boxes.  It still works even with that large number of boxes.  In fact it is very easy to judge relative toughness of characters by looking at density, even if you can't count the number of actual boxes once you get over about 9-10.  I'd argue that I can judge the relative maximum health based on box density faster than if I saw two numbers.

That's true... though I would argue that LOL is using much larger health bar graphics than I'm inclined to, and also that our current method of drawing health bars would really suffer performance-wise if we were doing that sort of drawing compared to what we do now.  Longer-term I want to change that drawing method anyhow, but in the shorter term adding little lines and such like that would be a linear increase to draw call cost for the health bar.

* Thinking about it further, I think health tank damage might need to be a little less extreme.  Maybe have you lose a tank every time you take 200% of your base hp in damage.  Represent this with a thin red link under the health bar that builds up, and when it is full you lose a tank.  Losing the overflow health is optional and I could see it going either way.

Could be... but this adds yet another interface component and yet another rule for players to learn.  I'd almost be more inclined to just have the tank costs start at 2 vitality stones and double from there, so that it's a lot cheaper to get into the 400% max health sweet spot zone that I suspect many players will stay at most of the time.  Before adding extra GUI of this nature I'd rather try the system in a simpler fashion and then see if it seems to harsh and what can be done about that.  The fewer rules the easier it is for a new player to understand, and something like health is a pretty central concept for them to get familiar with.

[zebramatt]

I have three comments:

• On screen display of current number of Health Tank Components - so that I don't have to either (a) keep looking in my inventory for how many I've got or (b) take up a slot on the action bar so I can see them all the time
• Shortcut key for using a relevant number of current Health Tank Components - for the same reason as 1
• The name "Health Tank Components" doesn't really fit the rest of the design - I'd be tempted to go with something like "Vitality Stones" or similar

Great point on the vitality stones, I like that name a lot and that would allow for a new graphic that would be less confusing to new players than trying to reuse an existing graphic to mean something entirely else!

Regarding the on-screen displays to see how many vitality stones you have, or hotkeys to use the next tier of vitality stones, that's really missing the point of these.  These are a major-upgrade sort of thing that you can periodically use, not something that is actually used in general in the field.  Initially I had it so that you could use them in the field since that way you could upgrade yourself as soon as you collect more vitality stones, but in retrospect I feel like that causes more problems than it solves.  If this is the "how long can I stay out in the wild" meter, then having that meter be adjustable in the wild just leads to perpetual expeditions which is really not the idea.  At any rate, so on-screen displays or keyboard shortcuts really would be pointless in that context because in town you just open up your inventory and take a look at what you have, versus needing to use these with any sort of speed in the field.

Fair point, especially now they'll only work in settlements!

Actually, I've been thinking about my point 1 a little further and:

• A cumulative total in the Message Log would be really useful - e.g. You found a vitality stone! You now have 8 vitality stones.
• A refinement of the commodity/collectibles inventory, so that everything's automatically organised and easy to read quickly

[Hearteater]

Yes, I did suggest that idea originally.  I was just commenting that the doubling nature really discourages a player from getting too many tanks anyway.

That being said, I'd say do whatever lets you get it in the game easiest so we can test it.  I'm really looking forward to how this and the mana changes will affect the game.

[Bluddy]

OK sounds great. From my perspective, the important point is not being able to heal yourself with a huge stash of medikits in your inventory ie. most health pickups are instant use. The extra element of seeing your entire health capacity is good too.

[FallingStar]

1 + 6 could get messy together if the health bar continually updates.  Like if you went from 201%/300% health to 199%/200% health, your health bar would fill up, making it look like you got healed.  Or if you were taking 105% damage it would look like a weak attack, then suddenly you die.

I'd suggest making the health bar max static when you enter a chunk, so you could judge the damage % compared to your max.  Perhaps black out permanently destroyed bits from health tank loss on the heath bar, and grey (or some other color) is the repairable not yet destroyed tank.

Another way would be doing different colors for "tanks" on the health bar.  IE start all red, one tank makes your bar half red, half green, another would make it 1/3 red, 1/3 green, 1/3 yellow (going with spellgem colors to keep a theme). That way you can judge how many tanks are going down. and then update the bar to your total health %.  Upside of that would be that if you go into a chunk with say 6 tanks, and then fight a boss at the end with only 2 tanks, its easier to see the damage you're taking.  But it would be more complicated.


Moving away from that one issue, I'm hoping the vitality stones come in greater numbers in higher than player civ level chunks.  Just since with all the changes, it seems like a lot of the reasons to explore above your civ level is getting diminished, especially if spellgem tiers change.  Getting stones in higher chunks could be another carrot to go there, offset by potentially losing a lot more too.

[x4000]

1 + 6 could get messy together if the health bar continually updates.  Like if you went from 201%/300% health to 199%/200% health, your health bar would fill up, making it look like you got healed.  Or if you were taking 105% damage it would look like a weak attack, then suddenly you die.

I'd suggest making the health bar max static when you enter a chunk, so you could judge the damage % compared to your max.  Perhaps black out permanently destroyed bits from health tank loss on the heath bar, and grey (or some other color) is the repairable not yet destroyed tank.

That's a good point, and that seems like a really good solution, too.

Moving away from that one issue, I'm hoping the vitality stones come in greater numbers in higher than player civ level chunks.  Just since with all the changes, it seems like a lot of the reasons to explore above your civ level is getting diminished, especially if spellgem tiers change.  Getting stones in higher chunks could be another carrot to go there, offset by potentially losing a lot more too.

Also a good point, especially with the EXP stuff changing.

[x4000]

Okay, updated to add #9 and #10 above.