Author Topic: Design Notes: New Mana System  (Read 10503 times)

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Design Notes: New Mana System
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2011, 10:06:44 am »
Inverse mana regen leads to a player leading a fight by bursting their entire mana pool and sitting at the lowest amount of mana for maximum regen and casting their best spells as soon as they have enough mana.

Offline superking

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Re: Design Notes: New Mana System
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2011, 10:36:05 am »
Inverse mana regen leads to a player leading a fight by bursting their entire mana pool and sitting at the lowest amount of mana for maximum regen and casting their best spells as soon as they have enough mana.

assumably the best spells will be the ones that empty most of the mana bar

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Design Notes: New Mana System
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2011, 10:57:40 am »
Doesn't matter actually.  Even if the best spell costs you 90% of your mana bar, it is still better to use 100% of your mana immediately and recast the best spell when you reach 90% full with inverse mana regen scaling.  That is the fastest way to regen the mana and yields the best long term DPS and incidentally burst DPS too.  In other words, there is no decision to be made: blow everything you have, and keep shooting the moment you have mana for the next spell.

Offline x4000

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Re: Design Notes: New Mana System
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2011, 11:17:10 am »
I'm not sure how well time based penalties (cooldowns) work in a game that doesn't press you for time. Perhaps all enemies should regenerate health to give some urgency to your attacks? This creates a counter incentive to waiting around for cooldowns to end, and a reason to use powerful spells despite their cost.

Yeah, that will be tricky, but having corresponding regen on monsters would help that.  Or just not doing the cooldowns in the same way, we'll see.

The combo system sounds fun but I'll reserve my judgement until I see it in action. I think I'd rather see the system I outlined in the previous thread, where enemies have layers of resistance shields that are best tackled by varying the attack to match the layers or finding original ways of attacking (such as lifting up the enemy with a telekinesis spell and attacking from below). In other words, I'd rather the bonus for varying spells be in tackling challenges than in using a set combo system (which I suspect may become monotonous -- everyone will just adjust to firing the sequence required for a combo).

Well, the system you were talking about is actually something of a different matter, I think; that's a much more monster-centric thing, and it's something that I do want to do for the larger enemies in particular.  But in terms of an actual combo system, the idea was to make that a player-centric one, regardless of what other monster-centric systems are in there.  That said, I might just hold off on that combo system for a while and see if it really feels needed.

I saw the previous topic and it's too long, I didn't read it, but I have an idea I like, and I hope it wasn't mentioned yet.

...

Now, the problem was the powerful spells don't feel so powerful/unique/whatever since you just have a cooldown. This is where my idea comes in. You need special runes (or similar) that you find in the world (either all over place or special magic places) for the most uber of the uberspells. You could say I picked this idea from Runescape. Oh, and all other spells just go on as usual, cooldown + regenerable mana, no runes.  :D

Yep, that was the hybrid system I was talking about, basically.  Runes = ammo in that model, and the explanation on why we're not doing that is above.  No worries, that was a monster topic, but it was really thoroughly discussed and was actually my top pick for a long while as well, until some players made some really convincing arguments against it.

One thought on the combo system, perhaps I'm misreading it -- am I right about the only way its being cleared is if all 3 elements in the bar are the same, otherwise just the most recent 2 are retained and a 3rd blank spot opens up?  If so, in boss battles or the like just alternating between red+ green (for example) would soon mean that every shot got the finisher bonus (red+green + red(bonus) -> green+ red (bonused earlier)+ green (bonus) => red(bonused earlier)+ green(bonused earlier) + red (bonused) etc.  ).  Since I already often just hold down two buttons for a boss battle to avoid the regen timer, getting a special combo bonus on every shot for doing that seems a bit off.  Of course I could be totally wrong how its working.

You could be entirely right, and it does need a bit more tuning I'm sure in terms of when it clears and all that.

On the flipside I do worry that any casting pattern based system needs to have only a few items to combo, since its a bit tough to alternate between more than that for standard mouse users, and for a keyboard user I'd think it would be a nightmare to move/dodge while patterning out spells.  I'd almost rather set them up another way, in a pattern on the quickbar or whatever or in a special combo slot somewhere.

Despite having a 5 button mouse myself, I still couldn't agree more with that.

Perhaps the elemental combo system wants to be tailored a bit to individual spells?  Say, only applying to middle-range spells, so small ones don't give you the counters and big ones aren't affected by it.  Basically, I think it would be a bit silly if I need to remember to use a couple of fire touch spells before I cast ULTRA FIRE.

True.  And that's a definite worry of mine, too, with any player-centric combo system.  We'll have to see how it does in playtesting, and the whole thing might just get scrapped.  For now I think I might just hold off on the combo part, since there is enough to be getting on with with the other changes, anyhow!

Sorry, another question --- are there some thoughts on what's going to be inside of ordinary buildings after this?  If we're eliminating scrolls, mana potions, gem dust, exp, and shards, it'll be down to traps, platforms, (if they survive redesign) health potions.  Which will still mean needing to go inside once in a while, but will bring back that feeling of emptiness.  Which would be a great shame, given how they're shaping up with furniture and player-designed rooms in place.

All that stuff that you would have been crafting at the outfitter isn't going away, it's instead taking the place of all that stuff that is no longer then in stash rooms.  And you'll be able to find some gems there sometimes, too, because I know some people hate ALWAYS having to go to the caves for gems.  But basically the stashes and such would be your sole source of non-elemental damage, which normally you could ignore but if you did something silly with a specific boss you might need it!
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: Design Notes: New Mana System
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2011, 11:17:43 am »
Just want to throw this out there since my motivation for an ammo system was NOT to limit really powerful spells.  I realize ammo is basically off the table, but I thought I'd clarify:

I envisioned something more like before setting out on a core mission, you'd get your ammo automatically filled up to 80% of max.  This allows some room to pick up ammo you encounter doing the mission.  Mission balance would expect you to use around 70-75% of your maximum ammo, meaning even without picking up extra ammo, if you use what you have wisely the only effect ammo will have on you is making you use a larger variety of spells to make full use of all the ammo types you are carrying.

Should you run out of ammo, you can return to town and get refilled to 80% again.  But you need to start the core mission over for the most part.  There will probably be some parts you don't need to complete, but then again the loose ammo and health tanks won't be around either.

So that was how I was viewing ammo.  Regular missions and general exploring would work similarly.  Gathering a large portion of your ammo before setting out takes no time.  Instead ammo would serve to limit how far you can explore based on how reckless you are with your spells.

Offline x4000

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Re: Design Notes: New Mana System
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2011, 12:13:15 pm »
Now that this is a reality rather than conjecture, moving this out of the brainstorming subforum. :)
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