Design Goal: Getting players to specialize, not just use everything.

[x4000]

I figured that when I'm seeing some various threads around that are swirling around some various ideas, I'd post a thread that at least gets at what I'm trying to do with some aspect of the design rather than trying to discuss lots of individual posts that are doing in a divergent direction.  So here's the first one.

1. In this game, there's obviously lots of spells that are a small bit redundant but which fill critical niches depending on your exact playstyle.

2. The choice of spells between these options, and between these colors/elements as the case may be, is meant to be more about player personality and personal expression than anything else.

3. Therefore anything complaining about there being too many spell options that are similar is missing the point and not something I'm interested and discussing or debating, or which I have any intention of changing.

4. However, I think that having more spells that are varied and interesting in new ways compared to the existing milieu of spells is a GREAT idea, and I'll be really receptive to hearing new ideas.

5. But just be aware that, with most new ideas that we implement I'll probably implement it slightly differently for 2-3 colors.  That way... you guessed it... customization and personality.

Examples:

A. Leafy Whip and Miasma Whip are both basically the same idea, but with different visuals.  However, the damage output of leafy is much larger, as is its range; but it's cooldown is also larger.  Miasma is much shorter and faster, and has a very low cooldown.  You can get lots of really different practical effects from these compared to one another depending on how you customize via enchants, and what other complementary spells you might want to use along with these in the matching color (if you have a bonus to the element, then using multiple spells of that element is great).

B.Ice Toss and Launch Rock.  Also pretty much the same sort of thing.  However, launch rock is much larger and thus harder to throw indoors.  It also does more damage and tends to arc in a way that is particularly difficult to throw in close quarters.  It's able to ultimately be thrown much further than ice toss depending on your angle of fire, though.  Here again, these are two basic riffs on the same idea, in two different colors, and how you choose to kit yourself out with enchants really lets you take it even to the next level.

And so on.

[nobody]

Just wanted to say its nice to see the developers perspective on design choices

[khadgar]

[shamelessplug]x4000, I think you might really like this idea I suggested in mantis then. It seems to basically what you just said above about your design goals for similar spells, with a small twist to make it feel 'cooler' to the player.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7326

I'll summarize it here too.

Basically, have enchants that effect only 1 spell. They modify it in some major manner, effectively making it a different spell, while still being the same spell at heart. So, it might remove a fireball's knockback but make it piercing, or cause a miasma whip to set an enemy on fire at the cost of having even less range. All kinds of neat effects could be piled on without the added cost of having an entirely new spell to farm materials for. If every single spell in the game (or at least the attack spells) had an alternate mode, then it would double the player choice without doubling the work required to come up with new and different ideas![/shamelessplug]

[postmanmanman]

My problem with this is that, with the current philosophy of of basically giving every spell to every element, albeit with slightly different stats, there's no real point to the elements beyond doing slightly more or less damage to specific enemy types.

We've got fireballs and light-balls and that earth beam and lighting balls, etc. And functionally they're all more or less exactly the same. I guess that allows for some "personalization" in terms of choosing which visual effect you like best, and which (minor) stat variation best suits your playing style, but good god is it boring. It's like how in modern shooters there's fifty billion different assault rifles, but they're all more or less the same thing... it's just this feeling of "what is the point?"

I understand, considering how much work you've got invested in the current system, that you probably don't want to change it up too much. But in the future, why not create spells that flesh out the different elements, give them some personality? It's just so bland as it is.

[Drjones013]

I agree with postmanmanman but with a caveat:

The spell types make sense in each element but there has to be some kind of functional flavor. Perhaps a slightly different approach-- thematic colors which have strengths and weaknesses. For example, entropy may have the weakest 'whip' spell but is good at xxx, earth has the strongest 'whip' spell but isn't good for long range, that sort of thing. The trend could also deal with speeds; earth is strong but slow, water is fast but weak, fire does damage over time, etc.

This could also lead to some interesting spell type combinations that would lead to a lot of individual character variation.

[x4000]

[shamelessplug]x4000, I think you might really like this idea I suggested in mantis then. It seems to basically what you just said above about your design goals for similar spells, with a small twist to make it feel 'cooler' to the player.

http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7326

I'll summarize it here too.

Basically, have enchants that effect only 1 spell. They modify it in some major manner, effectively making it a different spell, while still being the same spell at heart. So, it might remove a fireball's knockback but make it piercing, or cause a miasma whip to set an enemy on fire at the cost of having even less range. All kinds of neat effects could be piled on without the added cost of having an entirely new spell to farm materials for. If every single spell in the game (or at least the attack spells) had an alternate mode, then it would double the player choice without doubling the work required to come up with new and different ideas![/shamelessplug]

I saw that one, and it's a potentially interesting thing... but in a lot of respects that actually diminishes player expression, in my opinion.  I'd rather implement spell variants with unique visuals than do this, and then make it so that with more generalized enchants you can further customize the heck out of stuff.  That's my feeling at present, anyhow.

My problem with this is that, with the current philosophy of of basically giving every spell to every element, albeit with slightly different stats, there's no real point to the elements beyond doing slightly more or less damage to specific enemy types.

[snip]

I understand, considering how much work you've got invested in the current system, that you probably don't want to change it up too much. But in the future, why not create spells that flesh out the different elements, give them some personality? It's just so bland as it is.

What you're really talking about there are the basic ranged spells: kind of the SMG if this were an FPS.  My feeling was that, due to monster immunities, you need something of that sort for each color.  Beyond that, you have things that get more specialized.  Want a boomerang?  Right now only one color has that.  Something you can throw in an arc?  Only two colors ever have that.  Whip?  Two colors have that.

Aside from the basics, which every color needs a solid grounding in, my feeling is that most spell types should be implemented in 2, sometimes 3 colors with substantial riffs on themselves.  So really I'm in agreement with you that most new spells should not be crossing all colors.

TLDR: Any player should be able to get the basic functionality from any color.  That's already the case.  But then all the expanded spells on top of the basics should really start bringing out the personality of each color.  To me that doesn't mean changing anything about any of the current spells -- it means adding lots of new spells and really being careful about how many colors each type spans and which colors in particular each type spans.

[nobody]

What about giving each element its own side effect? For example lets say you have a basic projectile for each element. fire could cause continuous burning damage. entropy might make enemies take more damage from other attacks while under its effect. ice would slow enemy movement, light would leave a lingering trail lighting dark areas, or make enemies glow (this would make light real useful if you were fighting in caves, and wanted a different torso enchantment, and not have to worry about constantly casting logistical spells.) not sure what earth would do. I suppose it could just be harder hitting then the other ones. essentially be a non elemental attack.

[Bluddy]

(Written 3 posts ago, but still quite relevant)

I have to say I don't like this approach. It's fine for players to have different preferences, but there needs to be a reason for that preference to matter other than slightly different cooldowns and projectile speeds. Also because this is a random game, you want to push players to move outside their zone of comfort. That's why I really liked my idea of having each spell be randomly assigned to a single tier per continent, but you shot that down pretty quickly. There are several problems that I see with the current system:

1. There's no incentive to ever use more than 2 long range spells. Since a big part of the game is about researching new spells, that part is rendered ineffective as well. At this point, there's very little need to add more spells to the game, since people use a small fraction of what's available and have no incentive to do otherwise.
2. There's no incentive to use anything but long range spells, since anything else is more dangerous with minimal reward to compensate for that increased risk.
3. Since all spells are competing for resources, there's no incentive to research anything but long range spells of a few kinds (or even just one kind).
4. There's only a minor incentive to use different elements. Having different effects to different elements (burning, blinding, knockback, wet + electricity = extra electrocution, etc) would go a long way towards alleviating that.
5. Upgrading spells just leaves you with a stronger spell of the same type. The strength of the game is in having many different spells, but most people only need to upgrade their existing spells. Spending time upgrading the same spell is spending time doing something suboptimal and less interesting, because it doesn't expose the player to the gamut of spells the game offers.
6. There's no mechanism to make each continent feel unique from a spell perspective or to try to push you towards other spell choices (AFAIK. I think there used to be some but they were dropped?). For a random game that's supposed to be infinite, it's critical (IMO) to force people into trying different spells so that they get different experiences as they progress in the game. That's why I think it would be so great to sometimes have fireball at tier 1 and sometimes at tier 5. Anyway, that's just one idea to improve the dynamics.

[Martyn van Buren]

For me, I'd like to see a solution like bonus ships in AI War --- where specialization is partly a response to emergent challenges as well as style.  It seems to me that so far most players either have one build they like and use it on continent after continent, or vary their builds arbitrarily to try new things.  While in AI War people hardly ever follow the same unlock path twice, and if they did they'd almost certainly regret it.

So anyway I'm hoping for a bit more pushback from the game in terms of specialization.  The new mechanic for unlocking elites seems like a great start, and I wonder if we might be able to see more things like that?  Or an expanded role for elites, perhaps forming a guard on lieutenants and the overlord, or turning up as microbosses in some kind of regular way?  Anyway this seems like the kind of situation that you guys are brilliant at creating, so I don't know that there's much point in me trying to speculate about how.

EDIT: By the way, do people really not use ice cross any more?  I love that spell, but people keep writing "there's no point using anything but long-range spells."

[khadgar]

I'd rather implement spell variants with unique visuals than do this, and then make it so that with more generalized enchants you can further customize the heck out of stuff.  That's my feeling at present, anyhow.

I'll cross my fingers for an expansion pack. :3

[nobody]

why do you like ice cross so much? I personally never used it outside of the settlement. Id much rather have a whip spell over ice cross

[CodexArcanum]

1. There's no incentive to ever use more than 2 long range spells. Since a big part of the game is about researching new spells, that part is rendered ineffective as well. At this point, there's very little need to add more spells to the game, since people use a small fraction of what's available and have no incentive to do otherwise.

I disagree somewhat.  I regularly use 2 LR spells (fireball and lighting) for general use, sometimes swapping them between buttons depending on the relative prevalence of monsters (fireball first in esper heavy areas, lighting first in robot heavy areas).  I also keep Throw Rock within easy reach because a few monsters benefit from having a stronger attack, particularly an earth element (clockwork probes especially).   I've also considered other spells and my choice of fireball was somewhat arbitrary over the newer light spell (energy orb?)   I might use that one on the next continent just because I did enjoy it.

2. There's no incentive to use anything but long range spells, since anything else is more dangerous with minimal reward to compensate for that increased risk.

Again, I must disagree.  I always keep Miasma Whip within easy reach, mostly for harvesting but having a potent melee attack helps a lot again kamikaze enemies like bats or spawned fairies that are either hard to hit or can sneak up on you.   I also tried out Leaf Whip, and it works very well too but (echoing Chris' point) my enchants have veered towards mana reduction and cooldown, which means I can use miasma whip a whole lot, very quickly.  My current character is also pretty low on mana, which makes heavy hitters like Leaf Whip unappealing.

3. Since all spells are competing for resources, there's no incentive to research anything but long range spells of a few kinds (or even just one kind).

No way, I almost always have extra resources around anyway because I take up missions to get one thing and get something extra or because I do side missions.  Now, I do tend towards "spell families" like Light + Air + Fire because all use the same resources (Charred Embers and Magma, in this case) but even then there's limiting factors.  A major reason I dropped the Light spells is because I need Coral to upgrade them, and the only ocean shallows is like 5 tiles away.  Building a chain of buoys to get to it has been a continent-long endeavor.   If anything, that supplies your "limited tiers per continent" idea to some degree.  I just don't have access to needed materials, so entire spell branches are cut off for me.

4. There's only a minor incentive to use different elements. Having different effects to different elements (burning, blinding, knockback, wet + electricity = extra electrocution, etc) would go a long way towards alleviating that.

I do like that idea.  See the game Magicka for a neat example of each element having a unique special effect but all elements coming in basically the same forms.  I think more potent specials could bolster some of the less-used spells right now too.  Like, I hardly use any blue (water) spells because they're weaker and the knockback effects aren't nearly potent enough to make up for it.  It doesn't help that the vast majority of enemies are immune to knock back anyway.

5. Upgrading spells just leaves you with a stronger spell of the same type. The strength of the game is in having many different spells, but most people only need to upgrade their existing spells. Spending time upgrading the same spell is spending time doing something suboptimal and less interesting, because it doesn't expose the player to the gamut of spells the game offers.

Not really sure what to say about that.  I somewhat like the challenge of racing to upgrade my primary spells each tier to compensate for stronger enemies, and usually enemy migrations encourage learning a new spell if the new enemy mix messes up my dynamic.  I think additional enemies will help a lot with this aspect.  Like if Clockwork Probes start showing up further afield, I may have to upgrade my rock throw more, or look into other green spells to get an edge on them. 

I do think the enemy mix could use a boost in some areas though.  Like right now, the Skelebot Junkyard is just very badly balanced.  It's too easy to dominate with just lighting spells, and the rewards from raiding stashes in those little huts is far too great.

6. There's no mechanism to make each continent feel unique from a spell perspective or to try to push you towards other spell choices (AFAIK. I think there used to be some but they were dropped?). For a random game that's supposed to be infinite, it's critical (IMO) to force people into trying different spells so that they get different experiences as they progress in the game. That's why I think it would be so great to sometimes have fireball at tier 1 and sometimes at tier 5. Anyway, that's just one idea to improve the dynamics.

Again, I think the mix of which elements are easily available and which enemies are prominent in the areas you explore help to dictate which spells you focus on.  I think as the enemy variety increases, this will improve.  I also think somehow restricting access to materials even more might help.  Perhaps if each tier required new resources, and those resources were only available in certain regions with specific criteria that could be rarer.   Like "Tier 5 Fire spells require 'Skelebot Nuclear Cores' that can only be obtained by killing Skelebot bosses in stormy Junkyard areas."  Or "This spell requires 'Cooled Lava' that can only be obtained in ocean shelves that border Lava Flats."

[Martyn van Buren]

I wonder if Chris would be willing to write another post on how he sees the scope of work on AVWW for the next few months?  The community here has been suggesting a huge range of changes lately, as you said being used to major reworks from beta, and it might help if we had a better sense of what sorts of things you're disposed to doing?  We might be more helpful --- and less baby-bird annoying --- if we had a sense of what your thoughts are for the current direction of the game.

I think it would be reasonable for you to declare some parts of the game "off-limits" for changes --- lord knows you're responsive enough that someone who has a burning passion for changing them is most likely going to tell you about it anyway.

[Bluddy]

I disagree somewhat.  I regularly use 2 LR spells (fireball and lighting) for general use, sometimes swapping them between buttons depending on the relative prevalence of monsters (fireball first in esper heavy areas, lighting first in robot heavy areas).  I also keep Throw Rock within easy reach because a few monsters benefit from having a stronger attack, particularly an earth element (clockwork probes especially).   I've also considered other spells and my choice of fireball was somewhat arbitrary over the newer light spell (energy orb?)   I might use that one on the next continent just because I did enjoy it.

OK well I use the same 2 + 1 as my major hitters. Honestly, using the keyboard I need a lot more spells because it's really hard to hit enemies that have strange attack patterns or are below my line of fire. But switching to the mouse and using just 2 spells (fireball and lightning bolt) made it easy to take down everything, and that seems consistent with other people's experience. There just isn't enough incentive to diversify.

Again, I must disagree.  I always keep Miasma Whip within easy reach, mostly for harvesting but having a potent melee attack helps a lot again kamikaze enemies like bats or spawned fairies that are either hard to hit or can sneak up on you.   I also tried out Leaf Whip, and it works very well too but (echoing Chris' point) my enchants have veered towards mana reduction and cooldown, which means I can use miasma whip a whole lot, very quickly.  My current character is also pretty low on mana, which makes heavy hitters like Leaf Whip unappealing.

That's a fair point. Do others also feel that other spell types are worth pursuing?

No way, I almost always have extra resources around anyway because I take up missions to get one thing and get something extra or because I do side missions.  Now, I do tend towards "spell families" like Light + Air + Fire because all use the same resources (Charred Embers and Magma, in this case) but even then there's limiting factors.  A major reason I dropped the Light spells is because I need Coral to upgrade them, and the only ocean shallows is like 5 tiles away.  Building a chain of buoys to get to it has been a continent-long endeavor.   If anything, that supplies your "limited tiers per continent" idea to some degree.  I just don't have access to needed materials, so entire spell branches are cut off for me.

Another good point. I'll let others weigh in on this. I think that the example of not having light spells is awesome. I wish there were more examples of that due to missing tile types (this used to exist but has been scrapped AFAIK).

Not really sure what to say about that.  I somewhat like the challenge of racing to upgrade my primary spells each tier to compensate for stronger enemies, and usually enemy migrations encourage learning a new spell if the new enemy mix messes up my dynamic.  I think additional enemies will help a lot with this aspect.  Like if Clockwork Probes start showing up further afield, I may have to upgrade my rock throw more, or look into other green spells to get an edge on them. 

This one is more specific to the idea of having each spell in one random tier per continent. People have complained on the forum that when they upgrade the same spell it's boring, and with this method, you never have to upgrade the same spell -- you always get something new.

I do think the enemy mix could use a boost in some areas though.  Like right now, the Skelebot Junkyard is just very badly balanced.  It's too easy to dominate with just lighting spells, and the rewards from raiding stashes in those little huts is far too great.

Agreed. But I'm sure this will come in time as new enemies are added.

Again, I think the mix of which elements are easily available and which enemies are prominent in the areas you explore help to dictate which spells you focus on.  I think as the enemy variety increases, this will improve.  I also think somehow restricting access to materials even more might help.  Perhaps if each tier required new resources, and those resources were only available in certain regions with specific criteria that could be rarer.   Like "Tier 5 Fire spells require 'Skelebot Nuclear Cores' that can only be obtained by killing Skelebot bosses in stormy Junkyard areas."  Or "This spell requires 'Cooled Lava' that can only be obtained in ocean shelves that border Lava Flats."

I think that's a pretty cool idea -- those ingredients are pretty awesome and would really add variety to the crafting. My only concern is that spell ingredients are pretty complex-looking as they are, but some of the ingredients could definitely be switched to be as cool as the ones you listed.

Basically there needs to be some mechanism that keeps you changing your style between continents. I don't think enemies alone will do the trick since your most effective spells will always be the long range heavy-hitters of different elements. Some kind of random restriction of spells seems needed. In the case of missing tile types or extra ingredients, you'd be eliminating certain elements of spells usually. In the case of the idea of each spell having a single tier, you could end up with a tier 5 that has only melee spells for example. You could even combine both idea types.

[Hunam]

For me, I'd like to see a solution like bonus ships in AI War --- where specialization is partly a response to emergent challenges as well as style.  It seems to me that so far most players either have one build they like and use it on continent after continent, or vary their builds arbitrarily to try new things.  While in AI War people hardly ever follow the same unlock path twice, and if they did they'd almost certainly regret it.

This hits the nail on the head. I have played this game since beta began and have never really delved into most of the spells. I tend to use just a few that work and stick to them time and time again and the small variation in stats just doesn't interest me enough to experiment with the various colors.

Perhaps if the more unique spells rotated through the colors every time you switched continents would encourage players  to experiment with certain colors more often. For instance, say there is a variation of teleport in each of the colors but this is purely cosmetic. Maybe on continent 1 there is just a fire teleport and on the next there is a water teleport. Furthermore, you can only obtain teleport after having a level 3 (or something) spell its current color.

I have never used the light spells much at all but if there was a unique spell that I favored that came later in that color I would build my character more around that color for that continent. Maybe that spell would then be in a completely different color next time.

For this to work there would need to be a large variety of these "unique" spells that were unlocked a little later in the color.