Dealing with the divide: customization vs randomization.

[LayZboy]

But part of the appeal for me is that you can actually switch between being a glass cannon and being a tank from one battle to the next while in a given mission.

Doesn't that just totally get rid of uniqueness, being able to be anything at any given time?

[x4000]

But part of the appeal for me is that you can actually switch between being a glass cannon and being a tank from one battle to the next while in a given mission.

Doesn't that just totally get rid of uniqueness, being able to be anything at any given time?

You could make that argument about the entire enchant system if you wanted to.  But I haven't seen that as the case thus far, honestly.  It takes extra work to make these settlement-only or similar, so I'm going to start by not doing that.  If it turns out to be needed, then we'll do it.  Personally I think that being able to recon a fight, then adjust my character accordingly, is pretty cool.  But that's on paper -- in practice, who knows?

We will, tomorrow.

[Teal_Blue]

Actually I REALLY REALLY LOVE CHRIS's TAKE ON IT!!!  About all the customization, i really think its spot on and a great idea! And hope it gets into the game.

-Teal

[omegajasam]

Love the idea of random enchants. Would like to see some experimentation with 3+ enchants, negative enchants e.t.c.

Would Love a tabbed based enchant system. it's already unweildy and would make mroe enchant types/slots much more managable.

Not so keen on the on the fly base stat adjustments. You'll be gaining uniqueness from the enchants, but each character will lose their consitant playstyle... I feel I would care a lot /less/ about a character if I could turn them from glass cannon to tank easly. A floaty tank is easyer to care about then a float anything it wants.

I could be wrong, that's just my apprehension.

An alternate idea to the new slots -> Use upgrade stones to /make/ an enchant set. If they're going to be buyable anyway, then perhaps a system where you custom make the 3 components which can then be combined into a new enchant. That would get your consitant ability to use them, while also giving something to hunt for and craft.

Alternatively make it that gaining upgrade stones are then used to unlock new base stat enchants. Thus you gain new ways to play over time without it being yet another reason to just grind shards.


Minor enchants + Retirements system + the fame system from the other thread just sends my head spinning with cool ideas though

[Hyfrydle]

I haven't been on the forums for a while and all the new ideas a really blowing my mind. Love all the ideas in the OP for this thread and the other thread concerning the permadeath mechanic is really on the right track. A bonus for surviving rather than a penalty for death makes total sense and is just another example of how innovative Arcen are when it comes to game development.

If you think back to games from the past they used a lives mechanism and once all the lives had gone it was game over and a score was given which then gave the game an addictive quality because players where able to compete against themselves and now in the internet age each other.

Also the endless runner genre where surviving longer gives special abilities or advantages for future games.

All these alleviate the upset when a character dies and make the player want to play more.

Hope these ideas are implemented and I will definately be firing the game up this evening and enjoying all the changes.

[TechSY730]

Just saw the change.

The Upgrade Health enchants have a further requirement that you cannot change them out while you are damaged

Will this step on top of the whole "healing will not heal if your health is <1 away from max health" bug? Meaning, if your max health is 120 and your current health is 119.7, Ilari will not heal you, nor will healing orbs come to you, but you are still technically not a max health. Will being at 119.7 out of 120 prevent letting you change health enchants?

EDIT: Relevant mantis issues:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7983
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7059

[x4000]

Just saw the change.

The Upgrade Health enchants have a further requirement that you cannot change them out while you are damaged

Will this step on top of the whole "healing will not heal if your health is <1 away from max health" bug? Meaning, if your max health is 120 and your current health is 119.7, Ilari will not heal you, nor will healing orbs come to you, but you are still technically not a max health. Will being at 119.7 out of 120 prevent letting you change health enchants?

EDIT: Relevant mantis issues:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7983
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7059

No, if you have less than 1 damage done to you it will still work.  Specifically to avoid edge cases like that.  Not that we don't want to fix those bugs -- they're on the list for not too long from now -- but we also don't want people getting stuck in general with something like that.

[TechSY730]

Just saw the change.

The Upgrade Health enchants have a further requirement that you cannot change them out while you are damaged

Will this step on top of the whole "healing will not heal if your health is <1 away from max health" bug? Meaning, if your max health is 120 and your current health is 119.7, Ilari will not heal you, nor will healing orbs come to you, but you are still technically not a max health. Will being at 119.7 out of 120 prevent letting you change health enchants?

EDIT: Relevant mantis issues:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7983
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7059

No, if you have less than 1 damage done to you it will still work.  Specifically to avoid edge cases like that.  Not that we don't want to fix those bugs -- they're on the list for not too long from now -- but we also don't want people getting stuck in general with something like that.

Good. Just wanted to make sure this very, very common bug doesn't break this new enchant slot, but looks like you were one step ahead of me.

Still, better safe and tell you stuff you might already of considered than a near game-breaking bug, right?

[timesend]

I like the idea of retirement scrolls, they seem to be offer a different view on the soltuion to the whole problem of death. Which is rewarding life, the problem with negative death penalties is it cuts down our desire to take risks and thus cuts down what people are able to do.

I was wondering if alternative ways which we could reward players for keeping their characters alive, but without affecting major gameplay decisions. At first I consider giving some sort of reward for retiring players, but this seemed flawed as players my feel they are losing out for not retiring players. Thus I came to the conclusion that perhaps players should be rewarded simply for keeping their hero alive. With the mechanism to do this being rewards when you return to settlement after achieving a certain number of kills or mission succesfully completed. Now their are four types of rewards I would suggest.

1) Simple consciouness shards. As these are pretty common to get but are still useful the player would feel gratified to recieve them.
2) Enchants- For pretty much the same reason.
3) Rare scrolls, such as elysians. Pretty much same reason.
4) New skins for their character. By offering players who live longer visual differences, maybe a green red heatsuit or a new armor colour etc you reward the character for surviving. Now these visual reward unlocks should carry throught their hereos so they dont feel like they death becomes daunting when they lose their blue skinned wild age creature. Possible choice between skins when rewarded enabling the player truly to make his own character. At the same time the game mechanics are not affected thus players who do die alot aren't losing anything.  I would keep the unlocks completly hidden as well, so that no one truly knows how they are unlocked, thus people cant grind x to do x. Maybe even randomization.

These were just my thoughts on the matter, but the idea of rewarding life rather then punishing death truly seems to be a good path.

 

[_K_]

Did not read the entire thread, just throwing in an idea:

How about some sort of character "graveyard", where you can see your previous characters' history and achievements? Maybe also add some more uniqueness to a character, even if its cosmetic.
This might make the player get more attached to a character emotionally, hopefully discouraging him from suiciding or playing too recklessly.

[x4000]

Still, better safe and tell you stuff you might already of considered than a near game-breaking bug, right?

Definitely!

I was wondering if alternative ways which we could reward players for keeping their characters alive, but without affecting major gameplay decisions. At first I consider giving some sort of reward for retiring players, but this seemed flawed as players my feel they are losing out for not retiring players. Thus I came to the conclusion that perhaps players should be rewarded simply for keeping their hero alive.

There's actually a whole other thread about just that sort of thing -- definitely feel free to weigh in over there!

How about some sort of character "graveyard", where you can see your previous characters' history and achievements? Maybe also add some more uniqueness to a character, even if its cosmetic.
This might make the player get more attached to a character emotionally, hopefully discouraging him from suiciding or playing too recklessly.

I think that's definitely in the cards for sometime in the next few months, too.

[Elijah]

I like this change. Upgrade stones weren't really suitable, to upgrade the spells the game asks you to grind a little bit, so also having to grind for upgrading the player wasn't really nice.

In any case, if I can add my 5 cents, I would like to talk about immersion.

I mean, that's the only thing the game, at least now, lacks.
In AI war I could feel the immersion as soon as I started the game, only one planet, the graphic concept as dark and grim, surrounded by enemies, the sad music and the occasional AI terminal comment.

Here I can't feel the immersion. The story seems non-existant in game and everything feels so gamey.
I mean in Diablo 2, for example, every object I gathered was a success, as I saw, little by little, objects becoming more epic, slowly managing to create better runes and gems, I felt some kind of reward in satisfying the basic need of getting the character "Numbers" bigger and bigger.
Also here the concept is getting the numbers bigger with enchants, by to me they feel so impersonal and gamey. I mean, what are "Enchants", they are not even explained in the game. There is no explanation why I have to use these kinds of empowering objects, instead of a sword, or a gun. Also magic is not explained, everything feels to me as thrown into a big soup that doesn't really make any sense. I'm not saying that a game should be conventional in its nature, but it should explain, justify, the setting and the gameplay in someway.

So, I agree with enchants, if they were to be justified, explained in some way, as for now you just jump around, find containers that no-one knows why it's there and what's its purpose, and pam, after the counter goes to 100% (which I find indelicate to the immersion, really).

But why not implementing an equipment system, like swords, and armours that you can craft or collect by killing powerful monsters, or achieving epic objectives, or just exploring randomly some special locations, that would really improve the exploration aspect, as for now I feel, "Damn, I finished iron stuffs, I have to "explore" , again, to get some more". They don't have to show on the sprites, but there could be a deep equipment management that could make people more :

1) Pushed to explore;
2)Make quests that could be implemented to get new powerful items or material to craft them, and I mean quests in the conventional way, like collecting some wood, or killing some enemies as an extra to the "Mission system".
3)Make villages more important as there could be people who can help you with item, sell stuff, buy stuff from you in exchange of shards, and stuff like that.
4)Make NPC more important, as they could be scripted as a way to start quest and complete them.
5)Give more randomization to the game, more longevity with randomization, and something that can distract the player from the main game.
6)Specialization of characters could impact the acessibility the have to different kind of equipments, a man with no health enchants, should be restricted from using heavy armors.
7)Making players feel more attached to the character in game.

I feel that to make the game better it should be felt as more organic. Now I don't feel it's organic, I feel it's gamey and arcade for some aspects. More immersion, more rationalization of the gameplay components for me should be a priority, no?

Anyway, go to study. Ciao ciao!

(I would signature myself as "A shadow who appears sometime and brings bad luck" as it's been at least a couple of year, if not more, that I'm stalking the forums without writing more than a couple of messages. Anyway, "Absence of proof is not proof of absence" no?)

[tigersfan]

... [cut for brevity]
1) Pushed to explore;
2)Make quests that could be implemented to get new powerful items or material to craft them, and I mean quests in the conventional way, like collecting some wood, or killing some enemies as an extra to the "Mission system".
3)Make villages more important as there could be people who can help you with item, sell stuff, buy stuff from you in exchange of shards, and stuff like that.
4)Make NPC more important, as they could be scripted as a way to start quest and complete them.
5)Give more randomization to the game, more longevity with randomization, and something that can distract the player from the main game.
6)Specialization of characters could impact the acessibility the have to different kind of equipments, a man with no health enchants, should be restricted from using heavy armors.
7)Making players feel more attached to the character in game.
... [cut for brevity]

1. We do have some ideas in mind to make exploring more fun, but that is likely to come out after 1.1.
2. The problem with "get wood" or "kill 10 wolves" type quests is that they are grindy, which is something we are actively trying to avoid. This isn't an RPG, and I personally don't see any need for that type of RPG mechanic.
3. You already can buy stuff in the settlements, and there are NPCs in there who have professions which are needed for certain scrolls which help you. Did you have something more specific in mind?
4. The difficulty with making NPCs "important" if I understand what you are saying, is that making a procedurally generated story line is pretty much impossible if the story is to have any meaning.
   Perhaps we can add scripted stories at some point, but no time soon. Doing that kind of thing would take a TON of time, and just isn't something we can add right now.
5. More randomization in what regard? And, what do you mean by "longevity" in this case?
6. This is already done a bit with the NPC professions, where you need certain NPCs to have certain professions in order to have access to certain scrolls. But, as for your example, we don't have "armors" in the game, nor is that kind of thing really feasible. The way that we do the art in this game means that customizable equipment just really isn't possible. We'd have to render every character with every separate piece of armor, and every possible combination. This could take us months, so, it's not really something we can do. The enchants take the place of the armor in a sense, in that they do the same job, and have similar effects. They just don't need the art.
7. We have some ideas for how we can do this to a certain degree, but again, making someone care about a procedurally generated character isn't really easy.