Author Topic: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells  (Read 5036 times)

Offline ShiroIchida

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Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« on: May 26, 2012, 06:17:29 am »
So I went ahead and killed my current robot to check out all the new era-based bonuses (bonii?) that were just added, and was browsing until I that one of the pre-industrial characters had a base health of 100, attack of 135, and mana of 300. I blinked, and then immediately afterwards picked the character with the intention of slapping a shield on her and making her an unstoppable, invincible force of doom and destruction.

I'm not actually sure how mana works, but I experimented a bit and found that I could take as low as a 2-level mana enchant and still zero out the mana drain (obviously I'd use something larger so I could cast spells, but I was curious to see how far low I could go). The only issue was that the shield would turn itself off about 12 seconds after I turned it on.

I read somewhere on the forums that the shields were intended more as a dodge/timed thing than an source of sustained defense, so I'm not sure if it's a bug, or an incredibly irritating feature.

Possibly related, if I turn on my shield and dash, the dash will stop waaaay before I run out of mana. I have a level-6 mana upgrade on my glyphbearer, and the dash stops at ~300 mana. Again, is this some way of limiting the viability of a forever-shielding character, or unintended behavior?

Thanks for your time.

Offline Misery

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2012, 07:18:49 am »
This was a recently addressed issue, actually.

Shields ARE intended to be used as a short time thing, the sort that you have to turn on and off with the right timing in order to use properly.

The 12-second limit was put in place because of that;  otherwise you could get characters that were effectively invincible, which isnt how it's supposed to work.   

It's not that hard to get a character who can use a shield for a good amount of time, so long as they arent also firing off attack spells, but using it INDEFINITELY shouldnt be the case.



As for the dash, it seems to do that stopping thing regardless of shield.  I was noticing that earlier, it kept stopping at aboiut 30% mana remaining?  Somewhere around there.



Also, if you're getting zeroed out mana drain with a level TWO enchant (seriously, this shouldnt be possible), regardless of character type, it's probably a balance issue; consider submitting it to Mantis, if you would.    It's kinda expected right now, since all these huge changes to the character selection were done sorta all at once;  I'd had a similar thing happen with a Draconite at first, who ended up with an utterly absurd 300% attack power from a low-ish enchant.  They went and fixed it though after I'd mentioned it.

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2012, 07:57:04 am »
Actually, the issue of things like dash stopping before you run out of mana is already in Mantis. :)

Offline ShiroIchida

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2012, 08:11:26 am »
Okay, turns out that it didn't actually zero out at 2; I had a 40% mana regen enchant going on that I didn't remember I was using. So my bad on that one. And if somebody's already reported the dash thing, sweet, I don't have to file a bug report.

About the 12-second limit, though. I'm not sure that's the best method for preventing invincible shield tanks, because it doesn't actually stop you from spamming the shield. You can still toggle it on and off for infinity hit points so long as your regen outpaces the mana drain. It just makes it kind of annoying to keep it up when you're not actively in combat.

Perhaps an upfront mana cost on the shield might serve the purpose better? If you also added a mana drain that increased with the amount of time the shield was up, you'd end up with a shield best used in short bursts. Idle speculation on my part (and I guess against my interests, since I've now written an AHK script to give me infinitely regenerating shields foreeeeveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrr...bwahahahahahahaha)

Also of note is that apparently when you switch between shield types, it refreshes the 12-second timer, but doesn't have the same 1/4-second vulnerability double-tapping the key does.

Offline Misery

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2012, 08:15:58 am »
Okay, turns out that it didn't actually zero out at 2; I had a 40% mana regen enchant going on that I didn't remember I was using. So my bad on that one. And if somebody's already reported the dash thing, sweet, I don't have to file a bug report.

About the 12-second limit, though. I'm not sure that's the best method for preventing invincible shield tanks, because it doesn't actually stop you from spamming the shield. You can still toggle it on and off for infinity hit points so long as your regen outpaces the mana drain. It just makes it kind of annoying to keep it up when you're not actively in combat.

Perhaps an upfront mana cost on the shield might serve the purpose better? If you also added a mana drain that increased with the amount of time the shield was up, you'd end up with a shield best used in short bursts. Idle speculation on my part (and I guess against my interests, since I've now written an AHK script to give me infinitely regenerating shields foreeeeveeeeeeerrrrrrrrrr...bwahahahahahahaha)

Also of note is that apparently when you switch between shield types, it refreshes the 12-second timer, but doesn't have the same 1/4-second vulnerability double-tapping the key does.


How about just increasing the amount of.... of.... bloody word, cant remember, you know, time it takes before you can use the shield again.... oh I hate when I blank out on something like this.

Anyway, why not just increase that number?  If the player has to wait 5 seconds between uses regardless of the stats (and you'd have all shields be hit with this regardless of which one you actually used, so you cant just switch to another shield to bypass it) then you'd not have that exploit but also not have crazy mana problems.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2012, 08:39:05 am »
Actually, the issue of things like dash stopping before you run out of mana is already in Mantis. :)

Could you give a link or the relevant bug number?

Offline tigersfan

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2012, 09:16:29 am »
Actually, the issue of things like dash stopping before you run out of mana is already in Mantis. :)

Could you give a link or the relevant bug number?

http://arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=8100

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2012, 09:28:36 am »
Actually, the issue of things like dash stopping before you run out of mana is already in Mantis. :)

Could you give a link or the relevant bug number?

http://arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=8100

Thanks

Offline yllamana

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2012, 12:01:11 am »
I'm increasingly feeling like overreliance on "cooldowns" as a balancing mechanism leads to stale, boring and annoying gameplay. I don't feel like AVWW has that problem right now, mainly because the cooldowns tend to be more like retroactive "cast times," with a couple of exceptions like summons. I'd like it if it could not skip further down that path, though.

I'm not sure what gameplay purpose shields are meant to solve, exactly. Something you use to avoid a strong and otherwise unavoidable attack? Maybe a mobility penalty would be more appropriate, like not being able to use or trigger the shield while moving, and unable to attack (while keeping the existing mana cost). I'm sure that has its own downsides but it seems like a reasonable alternative to me.

Offline Misery

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2012, 12:49:14 am »
I'm increasingly feeling like overreliance on "cooldowns" as a balancing mechanism leads to stale, boring and annoying gameplay. I don't feel like AVWW has that problem right now, mainly because the cooldowns tend to be more like retroactive "cast times," with a couple of exceptions like summons. I'd like it if it could not skip further down that path, though.

I'm not sure what gameplay purpose shields are meant to solve, exactly. Something you use to avoid a strong and otherwise unavoidable attack? Maybe a mobility penalty would be more appropriate, like not being able to use or trigger the shield while moving, and unable to attack (while keeping the existing mana cost). I'm sure that has its own downsides but it seems like a reasonable alternative to me.

Unable to attack while using makes sense to me.

Unable to MOVE would probably just be a bad idea;  they'd go from useful to pretty much useless.

I do though think a high cooldown is a much better idea regardless.   It completely stops simply spamming them, without removing the possibility of combining them with other spells (like using it to get close and Ice Burst something).

Offline Gemzo

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2012, 02:08:36 am »
I don't want to have to fiddle with a cooldown when there's dudes who hit for 2 bazillion running around. It's already annoying enough to get hit because of the shield turning off when you use enough mana bug. At the same time it really is not fair that the shields are just so strong as they are without said cooldown. Instead of slapping a cooldown on all of the current shields, we should visit the idea of varrying the shields. Maybe one shield could have a cooldown when turned off, but an extended maximum duration. Maybe one could increase your anti knockback but 10% of the damage gets through. Maybe one could have an exceedingly short duration and a short cooldown, but reflects projectiles back at the enemies/knocks back melee enemies when they hit it, even ones with extreme resistance. The possibilities are endless, but splitting the shield effects would probably make them harder to balance, rather than easier...

Oh well, 2 cents.

Offline yllamana

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2012, 06:05:37 am »
I'm increasingly feeling like overreliance on "cooldowns" as a balancing mechanism leads to stale, boring and annoying gameplay. I don't feel like AVWW has that problem right now, mainly because the cooldowns tend to be more like retroactive "cast times," with a couple of exceptions like summons. I'd like it if it could not skip further down that path, though.

I'm not sure what gameplay purpose shields are meant to solve, exactly. Something you use to avoid a strong and otherwise unavoidable attack? Maybe a mobility penalty would be more appropriate, like not being able to use or trigger the shield while moving, and unable to attack (while keeping the existing mana cost). I'm sure that has its own downsides but it seems like a reasonable alternative to me.

Unable to attack while using makes sense to me.

Unable to MOVE would probably just be a bad idea;  they'd go from useful to pretty much useless.

I do though think a high cooldown is a much better idea regardless.   It completely stops simply spamming them, without removing the possibility of combining them with other spells (like using it to get close and Ice Burst something).
The problem I'm having is the realisation that the games with really enjoyable combat for me tend to not have cooldowns. Like, at all.

I think what you said up there sums it up well: they're attractive because they're really easy. You just put a cooldown on it and it can't be abused! It's the simplest solution imaginable - it works, insofar as it stops players from using creativity to break your game balance, and it saves you - the designer - from having to come up with something actually interesting or integrated with other abilities at all.

If something is going to be in the game, it should be integrated well with the other systems such that it promotes interesting, thoughtful, dynamic use and gameplay.

So, to throw out an example: what if having a shield up halted your mana regen (but it had no cost) and having a shield up halted your shield power regen? Then you've got two contradictory forces at work that hopefully interact with the other systems well and promote cool and interesting gameplay.

Offline Misery

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2012, 07:00:18 am »
I'm increasingly feeling like overreliance on "cooldowns" as a balancing mechanism leads to stale, boring and annoying gameplay. I don't feel like AVWW has that problem right now, mainly because the cooldowns tend to be more like retroactive "cast times," with a couple of exceptions like summons. I'd like it if it could not skip further down that path, though.

I'm not sure what gameplay purpose shields are meant to solve, exactly. Something you use to avoid a strong and otherwise unavoidable attack? Maybe a mobility penalty would be more appropriate, like not being able to use or trigger the shield while moving, and unable to attack (while keeping the existing mana cost). I'm sure that has its own downsides but it seems like a reasonable alternative to me.

Unable to attack while using makes sense to me.

Unable to MOVE would probably just be a bad idea;  they'd go from useful to pretty much useless.

I do though think a high cooldown is a much better idea regardless.   It completely stops simply spamming them, without removing the possibility of combining them with other spells (like using it to get close and Ice Burst something).
The problem I'm having is the realisation that the games with really enjoyable combat for me tend to not have cooldowns. Like, at all.

I think what you said up there sums it up well: they're attractive because they're really easy. You just put a cooldown on it and it can't be abused! It's the simplest solution imaginable - it works, insofar as it stops players from using creativity to break your game balance, and it saves you - the designer - from having to come up with something actually interesting or integrated with other abilities at all.

If something is going to be in the game, it should be integrated well with the other systems such that it promotes interesting, thoughtful, dynamic use and gameplay.

So, to throw out an example: what if having a shield up halted your mana regen (but it had no cost) and having a shield up halted your shield power regen? Then you've got two contradictory forces at work that hopefully interact with the other systems well and promote cool and interesting gameplay.


Unfortunately, that solution (while not a bad idea) would only work if mana recharge rate were DRASTICALLY reduced.

The thing about cooldowns in this game, is that, for the most part, they're not GLOBAL cooldowns.   They're for individual spells only.   I dont even look at them as "cooldowns" much of the time.   I look at them as a rate-of-fire kind of thing, because most spells that have them to where you actually have to pay attention to them, are attack spells; utility spells like Sunrise or Ride the Lightning or Light Snake do TECHNICALLY have cooldowns, but I honestly never even notice those;  they're very short and unobtrusive.   Utility spells just dont really NEED them, so they're nearly unnoticable there.  And of course these can be altered with enchants.

Any combat spell though, or anything that may for any reason potentially be useful in some way in combat needs to have it's rate-of-fire (or rate-of-usage, however you wanna say it) kept in check.  The moment you start to remove this, is the moment when the game's balance starts to completely break down.   As it is, using more than one spell allows you to get around this a bit; you fire Energy Orb, right, and it needs a moment before it'll fire another bolt; well, during that time you can cast another spell, be it Forest Rage or Fireball or whatever.  The game doesnt stop you from doing this.   And on a technical level, pretty much ANY game is going to use this concept.  Even something like Contra generally has limits to rate of fire, or with some older games, rate of "how many bullets you can have onscreen at once" which creates the same effect in the end (but also allows for a certain exploit).    Look at Castlevania; that's a classic game, with combat and platforming that required alot of precision and careful movement rather than just wildly hopping on everything.   But Simon Belmont did in fact have a "cooldown" period that he had to deal with, in the use of his whip.... you could only use it so quickly (which wasnt very quick at all).   Even his special weapons were prone to this;  you had to wait until each was off the screen before you could toss another, unless you had the multipliers of course, but even then there were limits.

The reason why this is so important for the shield spells is because they basically act as a seperate, temporary health bar every time they're used;  this temp health takes damage instead of your actual character until you either run out of mana, run out of time, or the shield is overwhelmed.

The problem is not the cost of RUNNING the shield;  the usual situation with shields is that they pretty much DO stop your recharge while being used, because they're a constant drain;  sure, you can attack or use other spells while they're up..... but you're going to simply drain your mana pretty fast doing that.   (characters that can do this WITHOUT draining are likely just unbalanced at the moment).   These shields are pretty powerful, and they need cooldowns for the same reason heavy attacks need them.  Look at Ice Burst for instance.  This one hits HARD.  Melee only, but HARD.   If it had the same low cooldown as, say, a Forest Rage, particularly Forest Rage with cooldown-reduce enchants on it, Ice Burst would then be WAY overpowered.    You'd have to either dramatically (really dramatically) increase the cost of the spell, or dramatically lower it's damage in order to balance it WITHOUT increasing that cooldown.   In that same way, balancing the shields out a bit better WITHOUT some limitation on how often they can be fired up would require lowering their various stats, increasing the rate of mana burn.... things that in the end, would mostly just come out kinda annoying and reduce their usefulness.


I know what you mean about "games without cooldowns" and I can think of a few..... but those few tend to be pretty darn mindless, in how the combat works, and only have a very few attacks (and often have alot of nasty exploits).

Offline EtherealOne

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2012, 07:54:16 am »
For me, I would say I have the shield on about 95% of the time. This is mostly because I have a huge amount of mana regen on my enchants (90%).

I only deactivate to quickly recharge mana

Offline Misery

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Re: Confusing behavior from shield and dash spells
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2012, 08:26:43 am »
For me, I would say I have the shield on about 95% of the time. This is mostly because I have a huge amount of mana regen on my enchants (90%).

I only deactivate to quickly recharge mana


Aye, pretty much exactly the problem with them now.   A little too exploitable with the right setup.