Author Topic: AVWW2 - Early impressions/feedback (now with more feedback and less derail!)  (Read 8287 times)

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Re: AVWW2 - Very early impressions/feedback
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2012, 12:15:56 pm »
I think what would be ideal is, if you want to actually discuss your impressions of the game, you use this forum. Nice and detailed posts can be met with nice and detailed posts. If you want it to reach the developer and nobody else, you just go straight to mantis. If you're unsure that something is worth the developers' time, you should post it here first for discussion. If people like it in general, post it on mantis and link it here.
So, a big thread full of impressions for the developers would be horrendously unorganized and would not be a place to look for proper feedback, or even really for other people to read about others' impressions. Buuut, we can just have general discussion of the game in a civilized manner.

Offline zaaq

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Re: AVWW2 - Very early impressions/feedback
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2012, 01:59:46 pm »
You know the difference between the forums and Mantis? Mantis doesn't get sidetracked into these idiotic segues.

We can certainly have idiotic segues in Manits, if we just try hard enough. ;) I'll stop trolling now.

Offline ShaggyMoose

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Re: AVWW2 - Very early impressions/feedback
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2013, 09:22:57 pm »
Attempting to bring this thread back to the land of sanity, here are some further impressions. The same thoughts were posted here. Not much in the way of suggestions here, just my opinions after a few hours of play. Some of these are known issues that have been observed by others, but it still might raise something for discussion.

The two game halves blend together fairly well and combine to provide a unique feel of desperation and desolation about the world. The game sets a punishing pace and there is no opportunity to sit back and consolidate. You have to constantly push forward, the evil overlord always one step behind. You always have the feeling you are only one turn away from defeat (if you are lucky).

The Good

- The music complements the game perfectly. Each tune is well suited to the tone of the world and the specific map(s) it relates to.
- The strategic meta-game seems to have a fair bit of depth. There are a lot of different "tiles" that can have multiple functions, some of which are not readily apparent for a while. You have to balance a lot of things to succeed, including avoiding getting stomped by the resident evil overlord. I can see however that if you were playing on a level other than "super pussy" (me), that you might hit a dead end without realising it and waste a lot of time. The random number generator can be a harsh mistress...
- Every now and again you have the opportunity to steal new classes from the evil overlord. Basically, five new sets of weapons to play with. Each set has its own strengths and weaknesses, but all are stronger than the previous classes available. What this means is that you basically have to keep changing your play style to match your current favourite class. Sometimes you may even want to change for a particular map style, but I find this just leads to confusion. This mechanic helps to keep the platforming fresh. There are also a set of perks which can be unlocked via actions on the strategic map that offer further customisation.
- I find the minimalist visual aesthetic interesting; others may not. Its definitely going to polarise people. Some of the art could still do with another layer of polish, but overall its attractive and effective.

The Meh

- Generally the platforming feels reasonably tight, but the jumps are a little floaty and the aim can be very screwy (a lot of the weapons do some pretty weird stuff). I think the levels are procedurally generated from a bunch of pre-fab "slices" which are fairly large, but a lot them seem pretty random and sort of slapped together. Apart from the distinctive visual design of each area, there is really nothing to distinguish one area from another.
- A lot of stuff is not fully implemented yet. There is a very minimal set of enemies and only one boss AI which doesn't do well on most maps. Basically, you can cheese most bosses to death with minimal effort at the moment. I understand this is beta and it doesn't really bother me that much, just a warning that there is still a fair amount of content to add/polish in this area.
- There is not enough to do in the platforming sections. Basically its just a run from one side to the other. Most enemies can be avoided and the only reason to kill them is if you need a health pick up or they are directly in the way. The loot aspect is almost non-existent; equipment few and far between and is mostly useless. It tends to break in only a few hits and half the time I can't even tell what it did in the two minutes I manage to keep it equipped. There is no crafting.

Overall, the platforming sections are a bit lack-lustre, but I am being driven on by the strategic game. If Arcen can polish up the platforming or add some more gameplay hooks in there, it will be a great game. I haven't looked at multiplayer yet some can't comment on how that plays/works.

Offline tigersfan

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A couple of thoughts from my perspective

- Folks are free to post thoughts/feedback in any manner they wish on the forums. It's a good place to discuss ideas from a wider player-base.

- Specific items that players would like action on should be placed into Mantis, because that's where we do most of our work from. Yes, we read the forums, and there are lots of specific changes in many of our games that folks can point to that have come from the forums directly. But, Mantis is where we go most when we want to know "What do we need to focus on now?"

- We got the game on Steam when we did because we wanted to have both games together as a package deal for the Christmas sale. We think that while Valley 2 is certainly not done, it's miles ahead of where AVWW was when it first hit beta.

As for some of the specific game comments in this thread, I'll touch on a few briefly.

- Yes, I agree that we need to tighten up the platforming a bit, and we're working on this. We're going to be adding a ton of new enemies, and other things to make it a lot more interesting. As well as probably increasing the enemy population in many areas, making it a lot harder to just run from one end to the other.

- As for the controls, we made a fairly significant change for the next version,  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=Valley_2_-_Beta_Release_Notes#Retirement_Of_Angled_Shots . We've taken out the 8-way aiming in favor of a simper 4 way aiming scheme. This way, the idea is that you aim by getting your character into the right spot, not by pressing the right combo of buttons at the right time. :)

Offline Bluddy

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As I mentioned earlier, I think some of the exploration stuff from the first game would really fit in here. There could be a deep cave system with many branching paths, or a large building to investigate. Not as much as in the first game, but some would be nice. I don't think a map is necessary. To the contrary -- heading in to investigate without a map could be more fun.

Some more ideas:
- Occasionally a tunnel could take you to another distant tile (that hasn't been explored yet).
- There's plenty of room for power-ups that give you a small advantage in the strategic game. These things should be hidden away behind fake walls in tunnels and such, and therefore hard to find/reach. Most tunnels/buildings could lead to dead ends though.
- I'd like the generator to look more dangerous. Currently the art for it is like something from Alice in Wonderland. I'd prefer something that looks bad-ass, possibly with wobbly shader effects tearing up the fabric of reality surrounding it.
- As one activity, you could send in your survivors to scout out an area and find the location of the generator. If you have the luxury of doing this, you'd have the path to the generator highlighted for you. Otherwise, you have to hunt down the generator, and it could be in several different places.
- All this would work much better if there was real risk involved with dying -- for example, losing a turn in the strategic game.

Offline tigersfan

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I completely disagree about the exploration without a map. I can't think of anything I've ever been more frustrated with in a game than trying to find my way around not not succeeding. When I get lost in a game, I just stop playing. I don't spend a lot of time trying to find my way out. I just move on to another game.

Offline tigersfan

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Also, I like the idea of death having a greater penalty. And, I like your penalty suggestion Bluddy.

Offline Wanderer

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I completely disagree about the exploration without a map. I can't think of anything I've ever been more frustrated with in a game than trying to find my way around not not succeeding. When I get lost in a game, I just stop playing. I don't spend a lot of time trying to find my way out. I just move on to another game.

Demon/Dark Souls is not for you then, but that game was based around being Nintendo style hard and death-experimentation.  It also was level crafted for landmarking.

A similar mechanic in, say, Assassin's Creed wouldn't work without some serious level design reconsiderations.

EDIT: I should mention I have purposely NOT gone near the Beta yet, waiting to get a 'first feel' off a more streamlined product.  This disclaimer is added because I have absolutely no idea if no map is a good or a bad plan for this game in particular.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 05:38:12 pm by Wanderer »
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline MouldyK

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- All this would work much better if there was real risk involved with dying -- for example, losing a turn in the strategic game.

That might be too harsh, maybe 3 deaths and you miss a go. Because for multiplayer games, that can make it go to turn 100 quite fast. :P

Offline Bluddy

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- All this would work much better if there was real risk involved with dying -- for example, losing a turn in the strategic game.

That might be too harsh, maybe 3 deaths and you miss a go. Because for multiplayer games, that can make it go to turn 100 quite fast. :P

I think for multiplayer, perhaps you lose a turn if everybody on the expedition dies. That's a reward for playing together.

Offline madcow

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I think a slight (very slight as in 1 or 2, or maybe scaled by strategic difficulty) morale loss could be appropriate. Since basically the savior of the resistance and humanity is dying.

Edit: Or scrap/food could be given a reason. Losing turns seems too extreme though. Even losing a small amount of mana would be appropriate and in theme with the mana loss you get later in the game.

Offline Pepisolo

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I think losing a turn would be the perfect punishment and would work well in single player.  It would need a bit of work to get just right in multiplayer mode, though.  For example, if one player dies does the turn advance instantly or would all three members need to die.... if so, how would this affect respawns, would the player who has died need to wait for the other members to kick the bucket before they could respawn etc. I'm sure these kinks could be worked out, though.

Offline Panopticon

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Losing a turn is pretty harsh in my consideration. The enemy gets an unopposed turn, in which you can take no action whatsoever. This could absolutely wreak havoc with your resistance forces. I much prefer a suggestion I made elsewhere where you merely lose access to the perks you were using at the time of death, possibly including whatever mage-class you were using at the time, for a turn. You still get to act, there is a penalty for dying that will have an effect on how you decide to play out the turn, and you won't face any truly permanent consequences like losing a whole turn could bring, even if it's just the advancement of the Danger Level.

Offline LaughingThesaurus

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Losing a whole turn seems a bit harsh to me as well. I've talked a lot about this but ultimately I think that any situation where a split second can result in you permanently falling behind in a situation where you don't have that amount of leeway on any difficulty setting is bad. I'm sticking with the opinion of morale loss on death, given that it makes more sense. I could also accept the loss of a turn if you only lost a turn after many deaths. That way, you could be at one death left and think "Okay, I'm not confident about this, I'll just go purify something so that I CAN get something done."
Although we need to lay down a ground for what "loss of turn" actually means. Does it mean that you can't dispatch on the next turn, and you lose your expedition? Effectively meaning that if your survivors are within 2 moves of the overlord, they will die without a prayer? That's too excessive for "one death". If it just means that you lose the expedition, then I'd still prefer it only happened on multiple deaths anyway. That way, you don't end up in a situation of losing or falling behind in the arms race because you were behind in the arms race (ie, trying to get the spells, or storming a research facility).

Offline Pepisolo

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Quote
Although we need to lay down a ground for what "loss of turn" actually means. Does it mean that you can't dispatch on the next turn, and you lose your expedition?

Loss of the current turn's expedition seems fine to me. So:

Dispatch>Expedition(success or failure)>Turn Ends

This would fit in with the current system as far as I can see. The only difference being that if you die, no purification advancement takes place on the strategic map. Given the recent changes to the controls and the pending complete rewrite of the enemy code, you can pretty much ignore the current state of the game's difficulty on the platforming sections and purely concentrate on which death penalty mechanic would work best. Once the new controls are in and the monsters have been rebalanced for 4 directional aim we will have a better idea on how harsh a penalty this would actually be.