AVWW2 - Controls

[MouldyK]

Granted, I might add that I've only tried the game with a gamepad. It might be wonky with keyboard. Can't say.

These Super Meat Boy Screens should be for this game too from what I hear. Unless you are Nanashi, then you can continue being a God. xD

[Nanashi]

Granted, I might add that I've only tried the game with a gamepad. It might be wonky with keyboard. Can't say.

These Super Meat Boy Screens should be for this game too from what I hear. Unless you are Nanashi, then you can continue being a God. xD

Worship me and my keyboard powers, rawr!

(Poor Super Meat Boy - it wishes it was IWBTG).

Edit: I blame the preponderance of modern keyboards without n-key rollover and will fully admit that there are games where analog sticks are necessary (Katamari Damacy would be dumb on a keyboard). Most of these games are 3D in nature and require a complicated range of motion on a plane. 2D platformers by and large require you to go backwards and forwards and usually use the down key and a jump button. That is not a complicated range of motion. A controller may improve your gaming experience, but it is by no means necessary.

The key to understanding the situation is context. I'd like to see Super Meat Boy try to shoot me in the face if we're playing the Typing of the Dead - for example. A controller is also poorly suited to playing FPS games and it'd be unlikely to shoot anything in the face in that context without aim assist.

Bathing is a necessity for functioning in modern human society. The fact that a game dev thinks it's optional speaks more about that game dev's relationship with personal hygiene.

A better example would be: Controllers aren't necessary, but neither are boob jobs. Think about it.

Edit edit: I think this is germane to the discussion - and why I can just use a n-key keyboard to play fighters.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2010/nov/18/video-unique-non-stick-fighting-arcade-stick/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGU1d-cmtuQ

[MouldyK]

A better example would be: Controllers aren't necessary, but neither are boob jobs. Think about it.

-looks in mirror and thinks he might need a boob job to function in modern human society-

And I don't think movement in the game is an issue, but more the aiming at an angle at things with the keyboard, while the controller has all what you need wrapped around your hands and you don't really need to alter your hand positions.

I think controllers are a good way to simplify controls in games and prefer them as long as they do not interfere or downgrade the game experience. Like an RTS on a controller? Pretty silly.

I mean, you seem to play a range of games, Nanashi. How do you cope with shooting at angles and how would you improve it?

[Nanashi]

Boob job was an attempt at humour - a more serious example would be using a fork for beating eggs as opposed to using an eggbeater. A fork works too, perhaps less efficiently; while I certainly wouldn't use an eggbeater to eat bacon. The right tools for the right situation are usually preference-based.

Re: other questions - It's not usually an issue. I've mentioned before that most platformer games with shooting like contra - I cope with shooting at angles exactly the same way I use the D-pad on a controller - my keyboard can hit the non-cardinal directions just as easily (Think of the 8-bit NES controller D-pad which is essentially a limited version of the keyboard controls where you can't hit more than 2 buttons at once and you can't hit opposing directions at the same time).

A diagonal input is actually just 2 separate simultaneous inputs. This is far from difficult on a keyboard unless your keyboard cannot recognize more than 2 keys at a time (2-key rollover).

Valley 2's problem with precision aiming is that it's neither keyboard nor controller friendly. Hitting diagonals forces you to move, which is annoying - hence some people suggested locking motions, which is a good idea. If I press down first, my character would crouch and be in a fixed position. If I pressed right or left first, my character would run while shooting downwards at an angle. Instead, we have special Q and E buttons for aiming at an angle.

Now the issue here isn't with diagonal fire, it's with diagonal fire when I want to stay in the same spot without moving. Holding Q to shoot downwards while hitting A (directly below Q) just feels extremely silly on a keyboard - but it can be rebound. However, I just play around it by using the jump key (unless I don't need reactive and precise movement, like when dealing with ceiling fire droppers in Valley 2) - if I jump, then hit a diagonal, shoot, then move backwards, I don't have to fumble around for the Q/E equivalent. I can summarise the entire problem with AVWW2's controls (from my perspective) by the existence of the Q and E diagonal aim buttons. Contra had this control scheme too - but the important difference is that when getting from point A to point B in Contra, most mobile crap dies in exactly 1 hit from your constant and nonstop bullet spam, making run and gun a viable strategy. Valley 2 does not encourage run and gun.

My other solution is just to have a hold position button. Hold it down (like the shift key) and your character absolutely cannot move while it is held down. However, you can still aim. Failing which, Metroid let you lock aim direction with a key toggle. That would be a lot simpler and intuitive as well.

[madcow]

Personally I think the easiest solution is a binding of keys for shooting at an upward angle, and a binding for keys at a downward angle.

Then it would be fairly simple to bind the asd row for the regular shot (though angled joystick would still angle them as well). Then use the qwe row for upward angled shots (basically just a macro of asd row + q as it currently is), and then you can bind the zxc row for downward shots.

Would feel natural that oh, I want to shoot up a little - I just move my finger up from the natural place to fire. This wouldn't work on gamepads, but they don't really need it. And I don't necessarily think its required to limit ourselves to one alternate control scheme here. If several are in, people can pick the one that works best for them.

[Misery]

Valley 2's problem with precision aiming is that it's neither keyboard nor controller friendly.

It works out just fine on a controller, actually.   Which makes sense:  The diagonal aim via seperate buttons idea came from Super Metroid.  I dont know where you're getting the idea that Metroid had a "toggle" for this sort of thing, unless it's perhaps one of the later 2D versions like Zero Mission or whatever (never played those), but Super Metroid had you use the two shoulder buttons for diagonal aiming.   The only other control option was the screwball "moonwalk" option (which was set in the options menu, and thus always turned on once you were in-game), which let you walk backwards while firing for some reason (it actually made it impossible to turn around without first letting go of the fire button).  Either way, it's very easy to aim diagonally without moving.

It seems though that one way or another, they need to add more possible options to the control scheme, as the current setups seem to just not work with everyone.   They're still very good setups, for those that find them to work well, but not for everyone.   Having a "toggle" option is probably a good idea, BUT, it needs to be just an option, not something that's always on, as it's not going to agree with everyone.   The current version of the game, .707 I think, actually screws up the controls for me to the point of being nearly unplayable, because I cant turn that strange bit off, which kept screwing me up.   Have to stick with the previous version till that changes.

[Nanashi]

Valley 2's problem with precision aiming is that it's neither keyboard nor controller friendly.

It works out just fine on a controller, actually.   Which makes sense:  The diagonal aim via seperate buttons idea came from Super Metroid.  I dont know where you're getting the idea that Metroid had a "toggle" for this sort of thing, unless it's perhaps one of the later 2D versions like Zero Mission or whatever (never played those), but Super Metroid had you use the two shoulder buttons for diagonal aiming.   The only other control option was the screwball "moonwalk" option (which was set in the options menu, and thus always turned on once you were in-game), which let you walk backwards while firing for some reason (it actually made it impossible to turn around without first letting go of the fire button).  Either way, it's very easy to aim diagonally without moving.

It seems though that one way or another, they need to add more possible options to the control scheme, as the current setups seem to just not work with everyone.   They're still very good setups, for those that find them to work well, but not for everyone.   Having a "toggle" option is probably a good idea, BUT, it needs to be just an option, not something that's always on, as it's not going to agree with everyone.   The current version of the game, .707 I think, actually screws up the controls for me to the point of being nearly unplayable, because I cant turn that strange bit off, which kept screwing me up.   Have to stick with the previous version till that changes.

You're probably right, the shoulder button aiming in Metroid did exist. I'm probably thinking of something else (Maybe Gunstar Heroes?), but binding R1/L1 directly to analogs on the keyboard doesn't work because a keyboard setup is different ergonomically from a controller. Putting them in Q and E by default just because they're "above" (like on a controller) doesn't work.  Shoulder buttons are modifier buttons and therefore analogs of keyboard modifiers, which are shift, ctrl and alt (badly placed for keyboard controls, but I've rebound Q and E  in valley 2 to Shift and Control)

Edit: I checked, neither Gunstar heroes, nor arguably the best modern gunning platformer series, Metal Slug, uses aim locks. Bosses are simply designed around not needing prolonged periods of diagonal shooting. They have large hitboxes and the battle is more about character movement rather than finicky aiming mechanisms, which explains why I have no trouble playing Metal Slug on my computer.

Edit edit: As an example - When I think of good shooter keyboard controls, I think of Hurrican (Turrican remake) ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HP3m1yNpiY ) Which let you stand still and shoot diagonally without the need of annoying modifier keys. Ironically, the only major change is that run and gun diagonally is by default not possible. Diagonal shooting was by its nature stationary - if you needed to run and gun, Y axis adjustments could be done via jumping. I think this might actually work in AVWW2 - would it be possible to get an option to NOT move whenever firing at a diagonal? I think it'd be worthwhile testing that. Whenever I am shooting at a diagonal in Valley 2, the vast majority of the time, I do NOT want to move, because monsters do not always die in 1 hit and there are obstacles all over. Running and gunning at a diagonal is not a feature I use at all unless I have a spell loadout that can oneshot bats.

Edit x3: I tried a bit more Valley 2, and now I'm perfectly serious about this. Remove the shoulder diagonal aiming buttons, make diagonal aim stationary by default, keep diagonal aiming with motion when jumping, and I'm pretty convinced that I'd drop all grievances with Valley 2's controls. If for some reason I feel the need to move in a straight line while aiming diagonally, I'll just bunny hop all over.

[darkchair]

I disagree strongly with the current defaulting to aiming up when jumping.
There are many cases I've found even in the first 30 minutes of playing where I want to shoot horizontally while jumping. One case is where there was a squid(?) or something on an upward slope shooting blue balls everywhere. The blue balls hurt and covered the entire slope, I could not get into a standing position where I could just aim up to kill the squid thing. The only way I could shoot it without hurting myself was to keep jumping and firing horizontally at it until it died. Having the aim default to up is infuriating because 1. It's not useful a third of the time and 2. It's a lot more work to change the angle from up if you dont like it. If it was defaulted to strait, it would simply be a matter of holding the corresponding aim button if you want it. Now if you want to not shoot up you have to move sideways which is very agonizing especially with rapid fire shots.

[madcow]

I'm fairly sure that the shooting at an angle because of jumping is a bug and wasn't intended. The patchnotes make no reference to jumping to shoot at an angle - just hitting up (which can be done while jumping).

[Neko_Baron]

Its mostly annoying since most of us finally got a decent grip on the controls, none of the previous suggestions were being looked into. Then someone suggested a cheap way to implement it which ended up making it completely wonky.

Arcen really needs to be more forward with why/how they expect controls to be done and why they don't want to look into 8 directional locked mouse aiming because it hard to suggest much else that isn't crippling keyboard play or requires a controller with 20+ keys on it.


And some people really need to go back and play metroid, It use a SINGLE key for directional shooting and is toggled up and down with the D Pad, something I keep suggesting.

[Nanashi]

Its mostly annoying since most of us finally got a decent grip on the controls, none of the previous suggestions were being looked into. Then someone suggested a cheap way to implement it which ended up making it completely wonky.

Arcen really needs to be more forward with why/how they expect controls to be done and why they don't want to look into 8 directional locked mouse aiming because it hard to suggest much else that isn't crippling keyboard play or requires a controller with 20+ keys on it.


And some people really need to go back and play metroid, It use a SINGLE key for directional shooting and is toggled up and down with the D Pad, something I keep suggesting.

I think you need to go back and play Metroid yourself. If you ever wanted to shoot diagonally in the NES version, I'm 100% certain you had to hit two directions on the D-pad. There is no true diagonal input for the NES - diagonal inputs are combinations of cardinal directions. Or are you talking about Super Metroid?

@darkchair: Agreed 100%. Aiming up when jumping is idiotic unless you're holding up. I really do find 0.707 annoying and hope they revert it.

[Panopticon]

The shooting behavior while jumping was an unintended consequence of the way they implemented directional-tap aim modifiers when you are standing still. In other words, it's a bug and Arcen is taking a much deserved Holiday break. I'm sure it'll be addressed super fast when they get back to work.

[ticker]

I play Valley 2 on a laptop keyboard. It's far from ideal or comfortable and I've complained about it compared to other games, but it does not hurt my wrists, because I exercise proper posture when playing games - and adding mouse control to the 2D platformer gameplay of AVWW2 is in my opinion like adding wheels to a billard ball. It's unnecessary, awkward and limiting - and it looks stupid to many people that actually play the game. It may be more reasonable with regard to the strategic overview, but AVWW2 hardly has complicated menus (you press up and down to go up and down a short linear list and hit the enter key).

I have never found it necessary to own a controller for any platform game I've played on the computer. I don't know why - perhaps I've been blessed with rare and superior genes that let me complete VVVVVV and Cave Story without ever touching my mouse.

If touching the keyboard makes your wrists explode, you should not be playing games at all, and a mouse is unlikely to improve your situation because your posture will be unchanged and at the very least, your left hand will end up exploding, which may be an inconvenience when you juggle flamingos. The problem is not with the existence of keyboard input, it's with the layout and implementation of the current keyboard control scheme.

Yes, my genes are different than yours. Thanks for understanding. And thanks for the medical advice, but I've spent plenty of time on it, but I know my limits and what works for me. I have played Super Meat Boy through absolutely fine, because it requires only one hand on the keyboard (wasd + space both on left hand). This game cannot do that - you have to have one cluster of controls for movement and one cluster of controls for spell usage. For a keyboard-only scheme, that necessitates two hands on the keyboard, which rules it out for me. It may seem strange to you that this is how things work for me, but it is. If you can't understand that, please don't comment on it and derail the thread: it's for people giving the developers feedback. If you don't agree with it, state that and why, but please don't waste everyone's time attacking people who are just trying to help out the developers, because that's what you come off as doing.

snip

You're not offensive, just completely bonkers in your choice of allegory. I can't remember the last time I played Castlevania with a mouse.

Oh that's right - never.

Oh my god - using the KEYBOARD to operate linear menus! Such a sin(!!). Everyone knows that the only acceptable way of operating in-game menus is a mouse! Every single AAA game that lets me bring up the in-game menu with the ESC key is a pile of poo!

What's that? That eliminates 99% of PC games? Whatever. Details.

You know, I'm just trying to convey my impressions to the developer. And that is that even for a keyboard-only game, right now it feels like PC FF7 or FF8, which were crappy Playstation ports. It doesn't feel like Super Meat Boy or other games which have easily manipulable menus that feel right. Having the first menu and options screens be mouse-available and none of the rest be mouse-available is a big mistake that needs to be fixed. It makes the game feel schizophrenic. The menus also need work to streamline and reduce the amount of keystrokes required. For example, all the menus I've noticed currently only scroll vertically. For example on the dispatch resistance member screens, right now it's enter menu, move "cursor" to resistance member, hit enter, move "cursor" to enter button, and select that you're finished.

Relocating the "enter" button (select resistance member) to a new column on the left or right would reduce keystrokes (enter dispatch resistance member screen, scroll vertically to desired resistance member, use left or right key to move to select enter key, hit enter.)

It doesn't seem like the developers put much effort into designing the interface for keyboard only, and that's something they need to address if they want to catch new players, which is what this seems to be driving at.

And thanks for the sneering tone, your insensitivity, and your putting words in my mouth that I never said in order to denigrate my opinion. It really makes the forums unpleasant, and doesn't make me want to stick around the community if it's like this.

[zaaq]

Nanashi: Thank you for providing evidence and some clarity to the advice I was driving for in the OP. I could tell something wasn't meshing, but don't have enough experience w/ platformers to participate in specific arguments

It doesn't seem like the developers put much effort into designing the interface for keyboard only, and that's something they need to address if they want to catch new players, which is what this seems to be driving at.

I assumed that's the point of the Valley 2 reboot as well. Thanks for recognizing the importance of a reasonable out-of-the-box experience. I recommend reviewing pages 2 and 3 of the thread where tigersfan addresses some of your concerns. Namely, one of Arcen's goals is to remove mouse support from the menus.

If you have specific improvements to note (such as the restructuring of the strategic menu), you should open a ticket on Mantis.

[Nanashi]

This game cannot do that - you have to have one cluster of controls for movement and one cluster of controls for spell usage. For a keyboard-only scheme, that necessitates two hands on the keyboard, which rules it out for me.

If you can't understand that, please don't comment on it and derail the thread: it's for people giving the developers feedback. If you don't agree with it, state that and why, but please don't waste everyone's time attacking people who are just trying to help out the developers, because that's what you come off as doing.

I was under the assumption that most people who play video games have two hands - but it seems like you only have access to both hands when one hand operates a mouse, or placing two hands on a keyboard causes you pain, while one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse does not.

Frankly, to me, that's a rather bizarre medical condition, but if you say you suffer from that, who am I to doubt you? That would just be insensitive since I'm not you and I can't prove that you don't really have a serious pain issue with playing with 2 hands. Maybe AVWW2 does need an accessibility option for one-handed play. Might as well add colourblind mode too - lots of games don't have one.

And thanks for the sneering tone, your insensitivity, and your putting words in my mouth that I never said in order to denigrate my opinion. It really makes the forums unpleasant, and doesn't make me want to stick around the community if it's like this.

Frankly speaking, there's possibly nothing I could add to this that would improve the situation for you, is there? I'm just one random person on the forums that didn't agree with your opinion because I am not able to empathize with this situation where two hands on a keyboard is impractical. As contradicting your opinion by using humour to satirize the reasoning (unfortunately, my usual modus operandi) hurts your feelings and is interpreted as a personal attack, maybe that's not the best way to communicate the issues I had with your logic.

So, I apologise if you took that as a personal attack. I could definitely have phrased that in a more neutral way that would have spared your feelings.

As said before, I always functioned under the presumption that most people were familiar with two-handed keyboard operation thanks to typing. But I don't think the game developers are responsible for your particular disease, so it's not entirely fair to criticise them for making controls that discriminate against one-handed people. I doubt that was intentional nor malicious.

If you needed special considerations to use the mouse and keyboard for actual gameplay, you are currently able to rebind movement to the left hand and firing spells to the mouse (assuming your mouse has a way of 4-5 inputs. Since you have this condition, I highly recommend getting one which does - I can personally vouch that the Logitech G700 is reasonable, or a Razer Naga epic. You will find it useful for many games other than Valley 2). It won't alleviate your great displeasure with the mouse for the strategic overview map, but it's a way of helping ameliorate your particular situation.