AVWW2 - Controls

[Nanashi]

I've already commented on the controls quite a while before (Q being really badly placed) and I think the simplest solution would be to have a hold position button (like the shift key) that locks you in place while letting you free aim a la Diablo.

The new controls aren't that much of an improvement over the old ones, to be honest I aim diagonally downwards while standing still by hopping, a la Contra. It's easiest for me to think of Valley 2 as a Contra that doesn't lock movement when you press up or down.

To be honest, I preferred Contra's contols >_>

[Vinraith]

About the mouse thing, maybe the FAQ should be linked to in the initial post, as it says clearly it's not going to happen. Ever. Why? 'cause people making generally awesome games don't want to go down that road. I was here when the discussion first came up with the announcement of AVWW2 and felt like many who complain now - why would You want to take away my precious mouse? Thing is, I made the mistake of thinking AVWW2 was like part one just bigger and brighter. It isn't. It's a different game. And once You are not trying to play it like the predecessor, it actually feels quite smooth.

I have nothing but love for Arcen and wish them all the best, but that decision is 1) a dealbreaker for me personally and 2) suicidal with respect to the success of the game. If the intent of AVWW2 was to make the game newly attractive to a crowd that largely rejected 1 (unjustly, IMO), disabling basic PC control support is the opposite of the way to go about doing that. It'll end up being the only thing anyone talks about, much like the art was for the first game, all the surrounding great design notwithstanding.

[Nanashi]

About the mouse thing, maybe the FAQ should be linked to in the initial post, as it says clearly it's not going to happen. Ever. Why? 'cause people making generally awesome games don't want to go down that road. I was here when the discussion first came up with the announcement of AVWW2 and felt like many who complain now - why would You want to take away my precious mouse? Thing is, I made the mistake of thinking AVWW2 was like part one just bigger and brighter. It isn't. It's a different game. And once You are not trying to play it like the predecessor, it actually feels quite smooth.

I have nothing but love for Arcen and wish them all the best, but that decision is 1) a dealbreaker for me personally and 2) suicidal with respect to the success of the game. If the intent of AVWW2 was to make the game newly attractive to a crowd that largely rejected 1 (unjustly, IMO), disabling basic PC control support is the opposite of the way to go about doing that. It'll end up being the only thing anyone talks about, much like the art was for the first game, all the surrounding great design notwithstanding.

? Are you quoting them out of context? I don't think you actually read the FAQ.

Arcen has only been hardline on a non-reintroduction of mouse targetting for spells. AVWW had you able to fire spells at any trajectory instead of just 8 directions.
I don't recall them ever saying they were not implementing mouse control over the UI, which is something completely different. The entire FAQ post was talking about mouse targetting as an issue of game balance, it'd take someone pretty psychotic to drag that into a confirmation of "You won't be allowed to use the mouse for *anything*, including using the UI", which falls under my expectations of "Basic PC controls".

I can't play street fighter 4 with a mouse. Does that make it a bad game? I can't play VVVVVV with a mouse. I can't play Super Mario Brothers with a mouse. I can't play Metroid or Castlevania with a mouse. Sometimes (and more often than not) the mouse isn't an optimal mode of control for a 2 dimensional platformer. What I'd like to know is exactly what 2D platformer game you've been playing other than Terraria has mouse controls in the gameplay - and what irreplaceable aspect you think the mouse adds.

Incidentally, Terraria isn't very well known for the depth of its combat.

You know what? I ran AVWW2 5 seconds ago. Guess how I navigated the title screen - a mouse!

[Pepisolo]

Just thought I'd share the Xbox pad control scheme that I have been using for a long while, which was working pretty well until the last update (the last update has made the shooting very frustrating and should probably be reversed).


up/down/left/right -- mapped to the d-pad rather than the analogue stick (although the choice of using either would be nice).

A -- Jump
B -- Secondary Fire
X -- Primary Fire
Y -- Interact

LB -- Special
RB -- Ammo Ability

LT -- Angle Down
RT -- Angle Up

Start -- Open Menu

This works very well on the platforming sections and is fairly decent on menus, too, although ideally the controls for the menus should be completely separate from the platforming ones.

One change which should still work for the joypad would be to remove the angle up and down buttons and replace them with a single fixed/free mode toggle button (like in Alien Soldier/Contra Hard corps).  This would lock the player in place allowing easy shooting in 8 directions. Now, this is not too much of a benefit when using the controller as the metroidian angle shooting works fine, but it would be a lot better for the keyboard. On the keyboard this should be mapped to the shift key allowing easy access at any time using your little finger.  I have played a little using the keyboard and it seems like it would work very well -- although I should state I have only extensively played AVWW2 with the joypad so far.

[Boonshniggle]

I am pretty happy that Arcen Games has seemed to go into a very gamepad friendly control scheme, and I think the combat is gonna benefit highly from it in the end. My only gripe is the movement being the same as the aiming...considering most gamepads have dual analog sticks, seperate aiming and movement should be totally doable. Also, at the same time allowing mouse/keyboard to have mouse aiming again, without making gamepad users feel like they are gimped.

If they just made use of all 4 trigger buttons (currently they only support 2 of the trigger buttons) then having all the spells bound to each trigger button allows the use of both analog sticks very intuitively. Left stick moves, however, since it's not an FPS where up and down need to move forward and back, up and down should make you jump/duck instead. Then, of course right stick can be used for 360 degree aiming.

Doing this kind of setup makes it possible to shoot forwards while moving backwards and such as well.

What's everyone else's opinion? This seems like a much better way to do it IMO...

[LayZboy]

You know what? I ran AVWW2 5 seconds ago. Guess how I navigated the title screen - a mouse!

Try the in-game ones. The ones you'll be using all the time.

[dagyo]

If they just made use of all 4 trigger buttons (currently they only support 2 of the trigger buttons) then having all the spells bound to each trigger button allows the use of both analog sticks very intuitively.

You can use all 4 triggers (I'm assuming you're referring to LB and RB as 2 of the triggers?). To map LT and RT you have to edit the Gamepad/Mouse Axis option, not the Gamepad key option.

[Boonshniggle]

If they just made use of all 4 trigger buttons (currently they only support 2 of the trigger buttons) then having all the spells bound to each trigger button allows the use of both analog sticks very intuitively.

You can use all 4 triggers (I'm assuming you're referring to LB and RB as 2 of the triggers?). To map LT and RT you have to edit the Gamepad/Mouse Axis option, not the Gamepad key option.

Oh, thank you, didn't realize that. Well my opinion on the seperate aiming and movement using both gamepad analog sticks still stands

[Nanashi]

You know what? I ran AVWW2 5 seconds ago. Guess how I navigated the title screen - a mouse!

Try the in-game ones. The ones you'll be using all the time.

I did. And on the only menu where I actually needed a mouse because of radio buttons - the Settings menu - the mouse worked!

[ticker]

I really really liked AVWW1, but based on the beta's control scheme, I physically cannot play AVWW2 on only a keyboard (and controllers are even worse on my wrists). Using its control scheme for 20 minutes results in wrist pain bad enough I have to stop. I've played hours of AVWW1 and other games which use WASD + mouse without issue. AVWW2 looks like it will be awesome, but I will not be able to play it unless mouse control is not added.

I do not see why it cannot be added in a way that works with the new aiming system. Is it really impossible to have free mouselook and limited aiming? Why not implement a system where the location of the cursor is translated into one of the firing tracks? (I.E. if cursor is between -20 and 20 degrees, fire horizontal, if between 20 and 60 degrees, fire horizontal angled up, if between 60 and 120 degrees, fire straight up, etc.) If this has been considered and found lacking, what elements have I overlooked?

I am also extremely disappointed by the lack of mouselook on the Strategic Overlay screens, and am baffled that there is no obvious statement on whether this will be added in the future or not. This is not a console game, this is a PC game, and overwhelmingly nearly all PC games have mouse control. To also then have mouse control when you start the game on the main menu but then immediately remove it when you enter the strategic screen / actual game is then extremely jarring. I feel that if the goal is to have no mouse control in any in-game UI, then the game would benefit from eliminating mouse control from the game entirely, and reworking the menu screens so that mouse control is not necessary. I also feel that it would be very beneficial to have an introductory screen pop up that says "Hi, there's no mouse controls, but you can use these controls to scroll through menus this way..." and so forth.

Working on posting this to the idea tracker...

[/nav]

I fully support tinker on this.

To be honest, I'm very used to Valley's control scheme so the Valley 2 aiming is a female canine to use, along with the keys being hand-displacingly scattered around the home row. Plus the fact I even have to use the keyboard to move around on the worldmap, awkwardly attempt to aim and even operate the in-game menus (!!) makes me feel like I'm trying to play a chinese Castlevania copy on a PS Vita.

Sorry if I'm offensive but I needed to lay out what I think about the current game. :T

[Mánagarmr]

I fully support tinker on this.

To be honest, I'm very used to Valley's control scheme so the Valley 2 aiming is a female canine to use, along with the keys being hand-displacingly scattered around the home row. Plus the fact I even have to use the keyboard to move around on the worldmap, awkwardly attempt to aim and even operate the in-game menus (!!) makes me feel like I'm trying to play a chinese Castlevania copy on a PS Vita.

Sorry if I'm offensive but I needed to lay out what I think about the current game. :T

I have no issues with the directional aim. It feels much more like a platformer and less like a bastard schmup clone, which is great. However, the in game menues not being usable by mouse is a big thorn in my side.

I still have to give this some more time to play around with. But having detailed control over the aim is vital to a good platformer. I'm also not completely friends with the fluidity of character movement yet either. But too early to comment on that.

Christmas keeps gettign in my way of playtesting

[Nanashi]

I fully support tinker on this.

To be honest, I'm very used to Valley's control scheme so the Valley 2 aiming is a female canine to use, along with the keys being hand-displacingly scattered around the home row. Plus the fact I even have to use the keyboard to move around on the worldmap, awkwardly attempt to aim and even operate the in-game menus (!!) makes me feel like I'm trying to play a chinese Castlevania copy on a PS Vita.

Sorry if I'm offensive but I needed to lay out what I think about the current game. :T

You're not offensive, just completely bonkers in your choice of allegory. I can't remember the last time I played Castlevania with a mouse.

Oh that's right - never.

Oh my god - using the KEYBOARD to operate linear menus! Such a sin(!!). Everyone knows that the only acceptable way of operating in-game menus is a mouse! Every single AAA game that lets me bring up the in-game menu with the ESC key is a pile of poo!

What's that? That eliminates 99% of PC games? Whatever. Details.

[Mánagarmr]

Granted, I might add that I've only tried the game with a gamepad. It might be wonky with keyboard. Can't say.

[Nanashi]

I play Valley 2 on a laptop keyboard. It's far from ideal or comfortable and I've complained about it compared to other games, but it does not hurt my wrists, because I exercise proper posture when playing games - and adding mouse control to the 2D platformer gameplay of AVWW2 is in my opinion like adding wheels to a billard ball. It's unnecessary, awkward and limiting - and it looks stupid to many people that actually play the game. It may be more reasonable with regard to the strategic overview, but AVWW2 hardly has complicated menus (you press up and down to go up and down a short linear list and hit the enter key).

I have never found it necessary to own a controller for any platform game I've played on the computer. I don't know why - perhaps I've been blessed with rare and superior genes that let me complete VVVVVV and Cave Story without ever touching my mouse.

If touching the keyboard makes your wrists explode, you should not be playing games at all, and a mouse is unlikely to improve your situation because your posture will be unchanged and at the very least, your left hand will end up exploding, which may be an inconvenience when you juggle flamingos. The problem is not with the existence of keyboard input, it's with the layout and implementation of the current keyboard control scheme.