AVWW2 - Controls

[vordrax]

Not in 2012, as we're officially closed for the year after today.

That said, I think Chris has a few with the art ready to go, and can potentially put some new ones in pretty quick after the holidays.

That's good, that will give people a chance to try out the beta and throw some things up on Mantis. Meanwhile, you can enjoy a holiday and not get burnt out.

[Panopticon]

I've come up with a pretty good scheme for my Xbox 360 controller. I figured I'd share it with you guys.

First thing I did was I remapped movement to the D-pad. Primarily because it's easier to get around the menus with the D-pad and I do prefer them over the analog stick in platforming when I have to make the choice. In Valley 2 it seems I have to make that choice, as mapping movement to the D-pad unmapped the left analog stick. Being able to use both would be optimal for me, especially considering that the D-pad on the 360 controller is not the most comfortable input method around. It does offer better precision than the analog stick though. Also, I don't have Aim Up/Aim Down mapped to the bumper buttons. Doing that creates what feels like a split control scheme. I like to have similar actions grouped together on the controller, such as attacks. The face buttons are fine if I'm not using the right analog stick for this sort of thing, but really I prefer for jump to be around A or B. I'm coming close to finalizing my scheme, some stuff may move around the face buttons but it's generally going to be like this;

Movement controls: D-pad
Face Buttons: Jumping, game interface and attack and look modifiers.
Bumpers and Triggers: Spells, Attacks and Abilities

A: Jump
B: Shoot Down
X: Shoot Up
Y: Accept/Look Ahead
RB: Primary Spell
LB: Secondary Spell
RT: Ammo Shot
LT: Special Ability
Back and Start are used for the Strategic Overview and Main Menu.

This gives me a control scheme where I have access to any action without having to shift my hands. It deviates from the MS standards for in-game interfaces but once I started using this configuration the action in the game opened up. Who cares about Microsoft anyway.

[LaughingThesaurus]

One thing I want to say is, I understand restricting aim to 8 directions. What I'm a bit confused about is why mouse aiming can't pick one of the eight directions that you are closest to clicking in. All I really got a sense of when it came to aiming was the fact that I had to stop and analyze the situation, remember the right angling button to press, and hopefully hold that and bend my hand around to hit the right attack button, while hoping the enemy doesn't move. Now, I will say that aiming is not something I have a problem with, but in that way it seems a bit more cumbersome than it should. Maybe I'll give it a shot on gamepad and see how it feels.

[MouldyK]

Panopticon: Tried your controls, they seem decent, but I still prefer the set-up I use. I can say the game opened up when I learnt my controls more, as basic as they are.

[zaaq]

zaaq, I won't argue that there could be some improvements made to the out-of-the-box controls. While discussing them here is fine, did you by chance add your ideas to Mantis, our bug/suggestion tracker? We do most of our work out of that.

I wasn't aware when I started the thread, but did find out later. (Probably called it by the wrong name in an earlier post.)

Once I get some time to experiment w/ the bindings discussed in the thread, I'll put together a writeup w/ specific changes. I think you can get away with only a handful of "action" tweaks +  reasonable mappings. (Not my place to decide, but if there are a couple strongly-favored mappings, it might not be bad to include both).

That though is pure opinion, for I find AVWW 2 controls awesome out of the box.

I'll be more specific then. The controls in cave story were awesome because of the cognitive ease of remembering which did what.

• Movement: arrow keys. Up to look up at things, down to search. "Search" is usually for things on the ground. They also used down for doors and interaction, likely because search/interact actions are pretty similar in that game.
• Jump/Fire weapon: Firing the weapon is more frequent than jumping, so fire is on the index finger (more frequently used/stronger finger), jump is on the middle finger.
• Weapon switching: A/S for previous/next weapon: In Euro-centric thought, left is previous, right is next. Like a sentence or a book. Frequently necessary during a fight, so they're right next to the combat keys.
• item screen/Map: Q/W - placed furthest away from the combat zone. Little chance of hitting them accidentally, order not important.

Edit: But what was really cool about cave story was the 'feel' for each of the weapons (much like the effect Arcen is aiming for w/ spells, I suspect). Each weapon was good in certain situations, and they got more "cool" as they got stronger. For example, having a high-level machine gun enables hovering, which is pretty awesome for navigation. The high-level bubbler could be used to find secret passages.

[tigersfan]

This just added for the next version.

* Along with the existing control options, the following new behavior has been added:
** If you are standing still on the X axis (you _can_ be jumping or falling, in other words), then all you have to to is hold or tap upwards, then release, and you will fire in an upwards 45 degree angle until you next move on the X axis.
** If you are standing still on the X axis, and are not ducking (so you _must_ be jumping or falling, in other words), then all you have to to is hold or tap downwards, then release, and you will fire in a downwards 45 degree angle until you next move on the X axis.  Even after you land.
** The idea is that this is a quick way to do angled shots while stationary without having to use the angled-shots button.  Positioning yourself where you want to be, then just tapping the up key and then laying loose with a barrage of shots at an upward arc is really really easy.  We didn't do it quite the same way with the downward shots (you have to be jumping/falling for this to apply) because that would have eliminated low-shots.
** This isn't an option to toggle on and off simply because it's so unobtrusive the way that it's been implemented.  But if that later seems needed, we can certainly add a toggle.

[Panopticon]

That sounds nice and elegant Tigers.

It'll allow me to streamline my control scheme on the gamepad too.

Is it possible to allow movement to be mapped to the D-Pad and an Analog Stick at the same time with the 360 pad? I may be missing something in the bindings. If it's not an option now, can it be added later? It's not a huge concern for me, but it'd be nice to have the option.

[icepick37]

Just want to say the controls are good. I had to swap s and w, but that's not earth shaking. Trying to do angle shots sucks, but my solution is to remap to pageup and pagedown.  That way you can get them with the right hand still.

Can't wait to try out your solution tigersfan. That may be a better fix.

[LaughingThesaurus]

That sounds like a pretty good solution.

[madcow]

Just want to say the controls are good. I had to swap s and w, but that's not earth shaking. Trying to do angle shots sucks, but my solution is to remap to pageup and pagedown.  That way you can get them with the right hand still.

Can't wait to try out your solution tigersfan. That may be a better fix.

Swapping w & s was the very first thing I did after testing out the controls.

[tigersfan]

Can't wait to try out your solution tigersfan. That may be a better fix.

I can't take credit for that. I'm just the messenger on that one.

[Professor Paul1290]

This just added for the next version.

* Along with the existing control options, the following new behavior has been added:
** If you are standing still on the X axis (you _can_ be jumping or falling, in other words), then all you have to to is hold or tap upwards, then release, and you will fire in an upwards 45 degree angle until you next move on the X axis.
** If you are standing still on the X axis, and are not ducking (so you _must_ be jumping or falling, in other words), then all you have to to is hold or tap downwards, then release, and you will fire in a downwards 45 degree angle until you next move on the X axis.  Even after you land.
** The idea is that this is a quick way to do angled shots while stationary without having to use the angled-shots button.  Positioning yourself where you want to be, then just tapping the up key and then laying loose with a barrage of shots at an upward arc is really really easy.  We didn't do it quite the same way with the downward shots (you have to be jumping/falling for this to apply) because that would have eliminated low-shots.
** This isn't an option to toggle on and off simply because it's so unobtrusive the way that it's been implemented.  But if that later seems needed, we can certainly add a toggle.

There's a bit of an issue now where jumping will act like tapping up and cause you to shoot up diagonally unless you move left or right.

Other than that it seems to work pretty well.

[MouldyK]

Yeah, the toggle should be added I think in the new year.

[Teal_Blue]

I apologize for not reading all of this thread, the first few seemed to be 'we want keys mapped this way...' and 'i want a mouse...'

i liked the mouse in avww 1 too, but i'm not going to ask for it here. actually i have gotten used to the control scheme and like it the way it is, including the spell keys on the left hand and the aim up aand aim down keys.

anyway, that is my opinion.

I thought the keys could be mapped anyway, any way that the player wanted?
As for mouse... i'm used to the keys and the keys are just fine for me, i don't really need a mouse anymore, anyway, when i did have it, it was always awkward to point and shoot anyway, I like it the way it is now. 

That is my two cents...

-T

[Chemuel]

Tried the new controls. I'd say pressing would be better, the tap-lock is redundant, but it does making things more smooth after a short phase of getting used to this. Thank You for considering.


About the mouse thing, maybe the FAQ should be linked to in the initial post, as it says clearly it's not going to happen. Ever. Why? 'cause people making generally awesome games don't want to go down that road. I was here when the discussion first came up with the announcement of AVWW2 and felt like many who complain now - why would You want to take away my precious mouse? Thing is, I made the mistake of thinking AVWW2 was like part one just bigger and brighter. It isn't. It's a different game. And once You are not trying to play it like the predecessor, it actually feels quite smooth.

About the smoothness - even with the controls accepted, it feels a little wobbly at times. Is there still work going into that or is it generally accepted that this is the responsiveness of the game as it will remain? (We are talking about the step between very good and perfect here, it's not actually a complaint.)



Finally a suggestion! Implement a new item type. "Glyphbearers obsession of mouse control +n". Gives mouse control as in part one. Reduces hearts by 99 (no hearts in part 1).