AVWW2 - Controls

[zaaq]

PSA
Please avoid discussion of mouse support in this thread.

As noted in the FAQ, Valley 2 doesn't include mouse controls for balance reasons. For the mouse aiming experience, play AVWW1.


Related Mantis Items
0010139: Using up on the left analog stick doesn't work well with my XBox 360 controller
0010112: Gamepad buttons are completely unorthodox and cannot be remapped comfortably
0010108: New aiming change causes undesirable behavior
0010091: locking keys for standing firing location
0010070: Spells sometimes do not trigger using gamepad controls
0010057: No indication how to make it past the first conversation


Original Post

I'd like to start by congratulating Arcen on getting AVWW2 to beta status. I've been looking forward to this game since it was first announced on Christopher Park's blog. Within that announcement, Christopher commented on "streamlining" the control scheme:

The controls are also streamlined.  That whole mouse+keyboard thing... really kills the classic Metroidvania style of a game like this... So we're moving down to... keyboard-based and gamepad-based [controls].

In a metroidvania style game, controls are king. I can appreciate that everyone needs a level field to play. That said, the controls in AVWW2 are lacking to the point that they disrupted my initial impression of the game. What follows is constructive criticism and some possible improvements to experiment with during beta.

Aside: There's a lot of ground to cover, so I apologize that the presentation is a bit rough, especially towards the end.


Keyboard
The most visible flaw in the keyboard scheme is that the controls aren't bound to similar gestures or hands. Notably, stationary aiming either requires use of the same fingers that cast spells, or twisting my hand unnaturally to hit the necessary buttons. This could be improved by doing one or more of the following:

• Dedicating a particular finger on the left hand to aim management. It's used solely to aim spells.
• Map the 'up' version of a spell to a nearby button in the 'q' row and the 'down' version of the spell to the 'z' row. Now aiming works by moving your finger relative to the spell being cast.
• Change movement to wasd on the left hand, use jkl; (or other nearby keys) for spellcasting and other actions, and dedicate e/c or q/z for upward/downward casting.

In a related point, The spells repeat very quickly. In the case of my 'f' spell, I was able to exhaust all of my mana before I became aware that it was connected to a depleting resource. Either it should be mapped to a key on an 'off' finger (more effort to press), the spell should not repeat, there should be a place to recover mana in the starting area, or the mana indicator should use a visual representation (making it easier to see what's changing).


XBox 360 Controller
Having been put off by the keyboard controls, I decided to try out the XBox 360 control. This experience was notably worse than the keyboard, because the mappings for this controller don't respect the way a player uses it.

• When working with this controller, it's best to group related actions with each other. Either use X/Y/A/B for the spells or triggers/bumpers. Don't vary between them. X/A/triggers should be used for more frequent abilities and Y/B/bumpers should be assigned to less-frequent/resource-intensive abilities.
  
  
• If a game requires multiple actions to be pressed simultaneously (ala combos), try to use XA and YB for the combinations, since they're both pressable with the pad of your thumb. I've seen XY and AB used, but only rarely.
  
  
• Your game currently requires the joysticks to be depressed for menu functions. The pause/settings menu should be mapped to 'start'. Generally 'back' isn't used for in-game purposes, but I've seen a few that use it for overviews, such as your strategic view.
  
  
• Platformers that use the XBox 360 control often support both the analog joystick and the D-Pad for movement and menu navigation. At present, AVWW2 supports only the analog joystick. (It could be possible to support both if 2 "axis" controls are made available on the control configuration screen... the d-pad often appears as a joystick "hat" control in SDKs).
  
  
• Aim up/down is hard to accommodate on this controller. You could use the triggers for casting the spell and the right joystick for aim or allocate a button to "don't move", then aim using the left joystick.
  
  

Hope this helps,

Zaaq

Edit 1: Fixed spelling of Chris' last name.
Edit 2: Added PSA.
Edit 3: Related items from Mantis.

[Scorcher24]

I absolutely hate the controls, what did you do Arcengames?
I stopped playing after a few minutes, because I cannot get my head wrapped around them.
Why exactly am I not allowed to use the mouse anymore? The controls have always been the bright side of the game for me, compared with the ability to map all 5 mouse buttons. Yeah, I made a stupid suggestion about it first, but when I found out that you can map all mouse buttons to abilities, I loved it to death.
Now I just don't want to play. Why Q for aiming upwards? Or E for down? It is imho a pain in the ass.
I want my mouse controls back .

edit:
All 2 feedback threads on the game hub on steam say the same about it...

[madcow]

I like the idea of having an up angled attack and down angled attack. The q + e thing is just too cumbersome.

I could see binding q,w,e,r to up-angled attacks.
Then binding a,s,d,f to the regular attacks (what I use atm)
Then putting z, x, c, v to down-angled attacks.

The option to bind this way could be put in without removing the current q/e modifier key if somebody prefers it. I might have to mantis that.

[Scorcher24]

No, just put back the 360° shooting as it was before.  That was good. It was intuitive, flexible and dynamic.
This way it is too limited.

I also just played with a controller. The days of GP1 and GP2 are over. Please use xbox controller images and show them instead.
I used those in my game: http://sinnix.net/downloads/
They are CC-BY-SA and commercially usable.

Also, why using the same stick for aiming than you do for walking? Use the left stick for that!

[Aklyon]

Not everyone uses an xbox controller, though.

[Scorcher24]

Not everyone uses an xbox controller, though.

Thats why the game displays keyboard letters when you use a keyboard... oO

[madcow]

A lot of the spells have arcs or trajectories based on the fact that you don't have 360 degrees of perfect aiming precision. It's actually a decent factor in spell selection, which adds some nice variety instead of always picking the direct shot spells.

[Aklyon]

Not everyone uses an xbox controller, though.

Thats why the game displays keyboard letters when you use a keyboard... oO

Except when you're using a controller. If I had meant 'Not everyone uses controller, some use keyboard', I wouldn't have posted that, its a rather obvious thing to say.

[MouldyK]

XBox 360 Controller
Having been put off by the keyboard controls, I decided to try out the XBox 360 control. This experience was notably worse than the keyboard, because the mappings for this controller don't respect the way a player uses it.

• When working with this controller, it's best to group related actions with each other. Either use X/Y/A/B for the spells or triggers/bumpers. Don't vary between them. X/A/triggers should be used for more frequent abilities and Y/B/bumpers should be assigned to less-frequent/resource-intensive abilities.
  
  
• If a game requires multiple actions to be pressed simultaneously (ala combos), try to use XA and YB for the combinations, since they're both pressable with the pad of your thumb. I've seen XY and AB used, but only rarely.
  
  
• Your game currently requires the joysticks to be depressed for menu functions. The pause/settings menu should be mapped to 'start'. Generally 'back' isn't used for in-game purposes, but I've seen a few that use it for overviews, such as your strategic view.
  
  
• Platformers that use the XBox 360 control often support both the analog joystick and the D-Pad for movement and menu navigation. At present, AVWW2 supports only the analog joystick. (It could be possible to support both if 2 "axis" controls are made available on the control configuration screen... the d-pad often appears as a joystick "hat" control in SDKs).
  
  
• Aim up/down is hard to accommodate on this controller. You could use the triggers for casting the spell and the right joystick for aim or allocate a button to "don't move", then aim using the left joystick.
  
  

Hope this helps,

Zaaq

Okay, I have played 20+ hours of the game with an Xbox 360 Controller with these settings:

A: Jump
B: Secondary Spell
X: Primary Spell
Y: Special Spell
LT: Ammo Spell
RT: Confirm/Menu/Go in Doors etc.
Left Thumbstick: Movement
LB: Aim Upwards
RB: Aim Downwards


And so far, it has been quite easy.

Here is Symphony of the Night's 360 controller method:

"Left hand (Attack/Shield/Use item): X
Right hand (Attack/Shield/Use item): B
Jump: A
Special (dodge): Y
Map: Left Trigger
Mist form: Left Bumper (requires Soul of Mist)
Wolf form: Right Trigger (requires Soul of Wolf)
Bat form: Right Bumper (requires Soul of Bat)
Status menu: Back button (Don't forget to set your sound to stereo
here!)"

As you can see, quite similar.


Also, the D-Pad is linked as a gamepad control, not an axis. Also, triggers are deemed axis on the Xbox Controller aswell.

And it has been mentioned that I think Keith or one of the devs uses another joypad and the layout of that and the Xbox one use different buttons, hence why some of the controls lok baffling unless you change them.


I hated the controls at first, but i'm quite used to them now. I mean, like I said, they are using similar controls from another popular game. And the game is meant to be like Metroidvania.

Also, why using the same stick for aiming than you do for walking? Use the left stick for that!

The game is not a twin-stick shooter. That is the reason why.

[Scorcher24]

Not everyone uses an xbox controller, though.

Thats why the game displays keyboard letters when you use a keyboard... oO

Except when you're using a controller. If I had meant 'Not everyone uses controller, some use keyboard', I wouldn't have posted that, its a rather obvious thing to say.

Well then finally come to the 21st century and get a xinput controller. Having anything else is stupid anyway since many of your games won't work properly.
I have a Logitech F510. So it is not an XBOX Controller. But since it is xinput compatible, it uses the same button layout.
Those old dinput controllers are just holding up game development  and hindering streamlining, as shown in your complaint.

But when it comes to sales, not using xinput button images is gonna hurt the game in the long run. Because the majority of gamers uses a xbox/xinput controller.
That is a fact. So they really should put this in, there is no excuse for not having it. Also, vibration.

The game is not a twin-stick shooter. That is the reason why.

Maybe, but every time I aim up- or downwards, my character starts moving. Annoying².
And I wished it would be.

[MouldyK]

Just assign the bumpers to the aim upwards and downwards? Or if you can, the 2nd thumbstick diagonals? Not sure how feasible that is, but if it is not there, maybe it should be added. Would that be a compromise for you?


And while you wish it was one, that is what Valley 1 is for. They made Valley 2 more Vania-y by making the controls simpler and only 1 stick or keyboard.

[Aklyon]

You certainly have a point, Scorcher. (the xinput wasn't what I'd been going for, but also is a good point). I'd just been thinking more along the lines of 'X? I don't have an x button on here. I have numbers.' or similar things. Mostly because mine does have numbered buttons, althoguh the layout is similar.

[Misery]

No, just put back the 360° shooting as it was before.  That was good. It was intuitive, flexible and dynamic.
This way it is too limited.

I also just played with a controller. The days of GP1 and GP2 are over. Please use xbox controller images and show them instead.
I used those in my game: http://sinnix.net/downloads/
They are CC-BY-SA and commercially usable.

Also, why using the same stick for aiming than you do for walking? Use the left stick for that!

For the 360 degree shooting:   It was changed to the current form because full 360 aim really screws with balance and patterns and such.... there's a reason why so very, very many games use 8-way aim.   360-degree aiming is best with really fast-paced games where you tend to just spam a single type of shot all the time.  For the sort of combat that this one is going for, that would very, very definitely NOT work.   And considering that combat in the first game was considered by many to be both too easy and too mindless, well.... yeah.

Now, as for aiming with the stick.... you dont have to do that, you know.  Super Metroid style controls.... you assign buttons that aim at an angle so long as you hold them.   It actually works very well.  Hold those to aim, and then fire, and you need not move.


And the controllers, well..... unfortunately, when it comes to PC games, controllers are probably always going to be a bit wonky.   I can think of very, very few PC games that have native controller support that is super easy to use.   And it gets even wonkier if you're using an unusual type of controller.   I'm using a PS3 controller (haaaaaaaaate the 360 controller with a passion), and it takes some work to set it up.   I cant really blame the developers for the difficulty of setting up controllers in general for these games, because even the highest quality, most well-made PC games out there are usually pretty screwy with controllers.  Just part of PC gaming.

That being said though, ANY controller can be technically used with ANY game, if you know how to do it.   The most extreme example I can think of was me using the PS3 controller to play Diablo 3.   I had character movement done by the dpad, and the cursor done by the right stick.  I'm not even going to try to explain HOW I got it to do this....  but it took a good 2 hours of me yelling at the screen, and at least 3 seperate (and confusing) programs running in the background to do things with the inputs. That's a pretty goofy example (I did it because I was having trouble using the mouse at the time), but it shows my point.  There's always SOME way of getting it to work.   For games where it's really giving you trouble, but you want to use it, consider looking into side programs that allow you to do things like change the controller input to keyboard/mouse/whatever, or other more advanced things.   I've yet to run into a game that I cant use that controller for, specifically in whatever way *I* want to.

I forgot where I was going with that. 


But anyway, I think the controls, and the combat in general, just take some getting used to.   Much slower-paced and more careful combat compared to the first game.   I personally think it's much better, but it's not going to be for everyone.   I can understand why some players just wont like the 8-way aiming and things like that.

[Scorcher24]

As I said, I use a F510 Controller, because I dislike the 360 either.. That is basically a PS3 Controller with XInput compatible button layout:


Other than that, I have said everything about it, that I need to say.


edit:
One more thing: Took me a while to figure out that I have to press "S" when the game starts to advance the dialog.

[Mánagarmr]

I absolutely hated the controls too, but I didn't have enough time to play around yesterday to rebind keys to my liking, so I can't actually comment on how the controls handle themselves when properly bound. However, I do lack one feature: "Lock Aim" key. Super Metroid had a button you pressed and Samus would then no longer move, but instead just aim according to how the D-pad was moved. Something like this would ease up diagonal aiming a lot, as I find I'm mostly just frantically flailing around while trying to aim anywhere by straight forwards.

Once I get more time to rebind my keys, I'm going to comment on how the game actually feels, controls wise. The character feels a bit a wierd and sluggish, but as I said, I need to play around more with it before I can really comment.