AVWW2 - Controls

[chemical_art]

I'll quote Chris:

Loss of the mouse controls and shield spells
Both of these things have an enormous impact on balance.  You could argue that these things are a matter of taste and customization, and I'd have to agree -- that's why they are in the first game, and why they remain there.  But these were one of the biggest ongoing challenges to balance in the first game for me, and they are things that really put large segments of the player populace at a disadvantage if they don't use them.

Here again, it comes to getting back to the roots of what we were trying to do.  Yes, Terraria uses the mouse controls -- so do numerous other PC action-adventure games with a 2D sidescroller view.  So do a lot of MMOs and RPGs.

In the first game we were really enticed by the allure of all those things, and so we let our design drift and become unfocused.  In other words, the design tried to become all things to all people, and Environ became a world that you could come and do whatever you wanted in.  That's pretty fun!  But it's very difficult to make a truly compelling game that way.  What we needed to do with the sequel was really focus, and make the original game we set out to do.

In terms of Mario Bros. games, what if Mario had a rocket launcher he could aim in any direction?  What if he had a force field he could toggle on and off periodically at will?  That might be entertaining for a bit, but that would fundamentally make a different game, I think.  And I don't think a better game -- for Mario, all the enemies are designed around him not having abilities like that.  So to give him those abilities means the levels would be crazy easy and hollow.

On the flip side, the game Intrusion 2 uses mechanics like aim-anywhere firing, and it's a brilliant game.  All the enemies are designed around the powers that your avatar has, and so everything fits together just right.  But of course the character there doesn't have the movement abilities that Mario does -- if the character there had that kind of speed and jumping ability, then I suspect its mechanics would really start to break down -- in the same way Mario would if you gave the wrong weapons to him.

 What I'm saying is, games are additive in nature -- you can't just throw any old thing in there and expect it to be the same game.  If you add a single new piece to Chess, you've dramatically changed that game.  It doesn't matter what the piece even does.

In the case of AVWW1, we had the movement speed of Mario 3 or so, and the aim-anywhere nature of Intrusion 2.  We also had control schemes that did not support aim-anywhere, and that made it so that players were playing two different games.  And that meant that enemies really couldn't be balanced around either, since in some cases could aim super-precisely and in others they could not aim remotely that well.  What a mess.

Chris has also said there is no chance mouse aim will be implemented.

[MouldyK]

I think the problem is flying things like bats are not "on-rails" as other enemies are, so they can dodge easily.

Like Chris said, things need to be based around the controls if you are going to have them, so the bats having a small hit-box, thereby allowing them to slip past bullets a lot and hit you. They don't seem right in the game in that way, making the controls harder than they are.

[chemical_art]

I think the problem is flying things like bats are not "on-rails" as other enemies are, so they can dodge easily.

Like Chris said, things need to be based around the controls if you are going to have them, so the bats having a small hit-box, thereby allowing them to slip past bullets a lot and hit you. They don't seem right in the game in that way, making the controls harder than they are.

But that is the point. Some enemies are easy to hit but can attack at range interfering with your shots. Some enemies are inherently hard to hit but only attack in melee (while you always have ranged attacks) and in addition die quickly. If you had perfect aim bats either would get tougher (making them no different from large enemies that attack in melee) or move faster (making them more a matter of reaction time rather then movement)

[tigersfan]

There's no mouse control in the game play, because, as we've said, that's too hard to balance. With the vastly different experiences that M/K vs. Gamepad/K only give with this kind of game, there is no wy to balance for both.

Why doesn't the mouse work in (some) of the UI? Well, because eventually, the plan is to have it work in NONE of it (except for maybe the settings menu). It really is annoying to go back and forth in a game between control methods, so we're re-doing the UI so that it can function without the mouse.

What do you mean with balance? I play Games either in SP or with friends. They do not care much if I get a slight "advantage" with a mouse.
Using Mouse or Controller should never be a question of balance, but a question of choice.
Just let me do whatever aiming you guys intend with a mouse. That is all I want..

I don't mean multiplayer balance. I mean it's too hard to balance enemies. Some enemies move and attack in such a way that attacking them with a mouse is more fun, and there are very different things you need to do in order to make it have a similar feel when playing without a mouse. Multi-player balance is a completely different thing.

[tigersfan]

The difference is those games are designed around the controls, where as AVWW with it's RNG and monster design just flat out isn't. This tends to lead to situations where you miss a monster coming from the tiniest pixel of an angle because of the 8 way firing, which is just flat out frustrating.

The mouse control was a nice touch but now I just feel even more gimped against strong monsters that can dodge just by being a few pixels higher. Also it's a PC game, we all have mouses, so I don't really see the need to mess up the K+M design for the sake of controllers.

If this is how you feel, I can understand that, but, I would say that the solution to this issue is to adjust the enemies so that they fit into the control scheme better, not to completely change the control scheme.

Also, there are other PC platformers that don't use the mouse. Right off the top of my head, Cave Story comes to mind.

[LayZboy]

If this is how you feel, I can understand that, but, I would say that the solution to this issue is to adjust the enemies so that they fit into the control scheme better, not to completely change the control scheme.

Also, there are other PC platformers that don't use the mouse. Right off the top of my head, Cave Story comes to mind.

But changing the entire monster design is also a big project. The thing about most 8 direction shoots is the map and all the rooms get designed in a specific way to be tackled. Whilst the AVWW rooms are not too bad most of the time, the monsters are what kills it when they just get free reign all over the place.

Maybe it's just because all we really have right now are those lovably bats with tiny hit-boxes. I'll see what it's like when we actually get a monster role-call.

[tigersfan]

If this is how you feel, I can understand that, but, I would say that the solution to this issue is to adjust the enemies so that they fit into the control scheme better, not to completely change the control scheme.

Also, there are other PC platformers that don't use the mouse. Right off the top of my head, Cave Story comes to mind.

But changing the entire monster design is also a big project. The thing about most 8 direction shoots is the map and all the rooms get designed in a specific way to be tackled. Whilst the AVWW rooms are not too bad most of the time, the monsters are what kills it when they just get free reign all over the place.

Maybe it's just because all we really have right now are those lovably bats with tiny hit-boxes. I'll see what it's like when we actually get a monster role-call.

It's a big project, sure, but, it's one we need to do anyway. None of the enemies in the game are final in terms of abilities or attacks. Some are closer than others, but, none are final. We have a TON more monsters to add. Give us some time to work out the monsters, I think you'll like the result.

[MouldyK]

Any idea on when new enemies will start to crop up?

[zaaq]

Let's all accept that keyboard + mouse won't happen, at least in any form recognizable from the first game, and get back on topic...

There are a handful of tweaks that could improve the beginning of the game. Broadly, they fall into 2 categories:

(1) Choose better defaults for certain controller types. Several reasonable defaults have been mentioned, based on similar titles. One or more of these should be submitted to Maven for voting.

(2) Tweaks to the "feeling" of certain inputs, to improve the usability of the first-time players. Proposed features include a "stand still while aiming" or "moonwalk" button, and improving menu navigation.

Also, there are other PC platformers that don't use the mouse. Right off the top of my head, Cave Story comes to mind.

The controls on Cave Story are awesome out-of-the-box. I can't recall having to remap any of them.

But changing the entire monster design is also a big project. The thing about most 8 direction shoots is the map and all the rooms get designed in a specific way to be tackled. Whilst the AVWW rooms are not too bad most of the time, the monsters are what kills it when they just get free reign all over the place.

IIRC, Metroid solved this with less-mobile monsters. In the early Contra games, the only thing that moved fast were weapon powerups. Not sure about the Castlevanias, but I remember the books were really slow and protoplasms only applied status effects (SOTN).

[tigersfan]

Any idea on when new enemies will start to crop up?

Not in 2012, as we're officially closed for the year after today.

That said, I think Chris has a few with the art ready to go, and can potentially put some new ones in pretty quick after the holidays.

[chemical_art]

The controls on Cave Story are awesome out-of-the-box. I can't recall having to remap any of them.

That though is pure opinion, for I find AVWW 2 controls awesome out of the box.

[Bluddy]

Just a suggestion of an alternative control scheme (that may possibly be better than the current defaults):

- The 4 powers map to the arrow keys.
- WASD to move
- To shoot diagonally, you can either combine D with W etc or use Q,E,C,Z. Having a dedicated diagonal key is (I think) easier than the shoulder button concept that exists for gamepads.

[tigersfan]

zaaq, I won't argue that there could be some improvements made to the out-of-the-box controls. While discussing them here is fine, did you by chance add your ideas to Mantis, our bug/suggestion tracker? We do most of our work out of that.

In case you aren't aware, youc an find that here: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view_all_bug_page.php?page_number=1

[MouldyK]

Closed? What is the meaning of this word?

I EXPECT AN UPDATE ON CHRISTMAS OR ELSE THERE WILL BE HELL! NO EXCUSES!

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU HAVE FAMILY TO SPEND TIME WITH? I AM NOT PAYING YOU TO SIT AROUND OVER THE HOLIDAYS, AM I?!


...I mean...Merry Christmas. 

[keith.lamothe]