AVWW2 - Controls

[goodgimp]

Eh, who cares about them? Nothing makes that kind of crowd happy once they get going.

If anything they're gonna raise even more hell now. They'll accuse Arcen of removing more options from the game instead of "just fixing it" with mouse controls. Anyone who comes at this beta with an air of entitlement has nothing to add to the discussion in my opinion. Changes should not be implemented to try to bring them in on the game. They've made up their mind and I'll be shocked if anything changes it for them other than just giving them the control scheme that they demand, regardless of the impact on gameplay.

So what are you saying, that there weren't problems with the controls or legitimate criticisms being made in that regard? Honest question, I just jumped into this thread and I'm not trying to put words into your mouth or attack you. I tried the beta only briefly, but the "briefly" part is solely because I found the controls pretty wretched and a big turn-off. I understood why the mouse aiming was done away with and I was okay with that, but the controls were bad. There's no way I would play the game like that, and if Arcen is looking to broaden the appeal of the game over the predecessor that's a pretty important thing to get feedback on, isn't it?

[Panopticon]

No that is not what I'm saying. This is a beta, issues are sure to be encountered in nearly every aspect of the game. Most posters in places like the Steam forums are just demanding that Arcen revert to the exact same control scheme of the first game. They aren't engaging in any useful testing or giving valuable feedback. I guess maybe their is some kind of data that could be culled out of all of that noise, but why bother with the effort?

As far as the controls being bad, that's part of testing. "These controls are bad, I quit playing" isn't useful information beyond the fact that you were personally put off the game in its current state. Why not go into the options menu, experiment with the controls and see if you can configure them in a way you like? If you can, share what you've discovered. If you can't, again share what you've discovered and give reasons why.

[goodgimp]

As far as the controls being bad, that's part of testing. "These controls are bad, I quit playing" isn't useful information beyond the fact that you were personally put off the game in its current state. Why not go into the options menu, experiment with the controls and see if you can configure them in a way you like? If you can, share what you've discovered. If you can't, again share what you've discovered and give reasons why.

Because, honestly, I'm not trying to be a beta tester for the game, I just poked in out of curiosity. Thanks for clarifying your previous post for me, as someone who just  jumped into the thread (and the forums) after being absent for a while I didn't understand the context of who/what you were referring to, but I do now (and I agree).

[Panopticon]

Just rolled up a new world and character to check out .708 fresh from the beginning.

Quick thoughts on the biggest change; Four way aiming is the way to go in my opinion. I groused a little internally when I saw you were removing the diagonal modifiers. I'm happy to say that the feeling, at least so far, was misplaced. The action side of the game is much more compelling already. Lining up shots through movement and spell selection is a lot more fun than analyzing for an optimal position to fight from then using the enemy pathing to line up diagonal shots for them to collide with. The combat now feels more tactical than strategic. It's improved the pacing and now that there is a little more pressure in the combat the platforming is more fun too. I'm even using spells defensively now! Campfire has become a lifesaver! Using it in conjunction with Explosive Arc in situations where I'm forced to fight defensively is really fun.

[zespri]

Just rolled up a new world and character to check out .708 fresh from the beginning.

Quick thoughts on the biggest change; Four way aiming is the way to go in my opinion. I groused a little internally when I saw you were removing the diagonal modifiers. I'm happy to say that the feeling, at least so far, was misplaced. The action side of the game is much more compelling already. Lining up shots through movement and spell selection is a lot more fun than analyzing for an optimal position to fight from then using the enemy pathing to line up diagonal shots for them to collide with. The combat now feels more tactical than strategic. It's improved the pacing and now that there is a little more pressure in the combat the platforming is more fun too. I'm even using spells defensively now! Campfire has become a lifesaver! Using it in conjunction with Explosive Arc in situations where I'm forced to fight defensively is really fun.

Yes. My initial reaction was very bad too - people don't like stuff to be taken away, and I personally had no issue with controls unlike so many people, but after playing a bit I agree that it works better - there was mini-boss fights that were winnable simply by getting into the right position and then leaning on the angle fire button. Not any more - the fights are more satisfying now.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Haven't had the chance to test this, but my question is just that there are still those enemies that can free aim and stuff, right? Those crabs with the blue boomerang shots? With this less freedom to target them from angles and all that, I'm a bit concerned that it'll prove more or less impossible to actually penetrate their attacks. In the same way, there's a problem with the slices with crate floors you need to blow up. I'm aware that this kind of thing will be adjusted eventually, but like what's the plan here? Enemies in Cave Story and such often either had four way aiming, destructible (or ignorable) projectiles, or both. That, and you just had so ridiculously much freedom of movement once tougher enemies came about that aiming was really, really fun. How will this end up working moving into the future? Or, does it already work really well now? I'm asking because I haven't yet updated, and I don't think that I should until the four way aiming doesn't fall victim to my concerns. I've already found the aforementioned enemies and situations annoying even with the freedom of eight way aiming.

[Skyrage]

If this control scheme is a part of an experiment on how to completely wreck sales, then I can already guarantee that the experiment will definitely succeed.

Why on earth is one of the most fundamentally important features in any game being messed with in this manner? If it is for game-play balance and such then you most definitely are doing things wrong.

[tigersfan]

If this control scheme is a part of an experiment on how to completely wreck sales, then I can already guarantee that the experiment will definitely succeed.

Why on earth is one of the most fundamentally important features in any game being messed with in this manner? If it is for game-play balance and such then you most definitely are doing things wrong.

It was mainly to make the games controls less complex. Previously, they had been too fiddly, and we think this helps with that.

I disagree with your assertion that this was one of the "most fundamentally important" features. Personally, I hardly ever used angled shots. The game is about finding the right position to hit the enemy from. I think this change allows players to focus more on that and less on "am I hitting the right key?"

[chemical_art]

If this control scheme is a part of an experiment on how to completely wreck sales, then I can already guarantee that the experiment will definitely succeed.

Why on earth is one of the most fundamentally important features in any game being messed with in this manner? If it is for game-play balance and such then you most definitely are doing things wrong.

It was mainly to make the games controls less complex. Previously, they had been too fiddly, and we think this helps with that.

I disagree with your assertion that this was one of the "most fundamentally important" features. Personally, I hardly ever used angled shots. The game is about finding the right position to hit the enemy from. I think this change allows players to focus more on that and less on "am I hitting the right key?"

For better or worst, the phrase "I agree / disagree that X is one of the most fundamentally important features" has categorized AVWW2 discussion pretty well, and for the AVWW saga as a whole. This is of course taken from the AI War player perspective, where any discussion is on nuances for at least 2 years, on not that which is most important.

From my perspective, I have never seen such a bitter discussion of whether less is more as far as controls go. I'm ambivalent at best that the answer to some awkward controls are to remove them outright, since if I found them awkward I wouldn't have to use them (90% of the time), but if I liked them for niche situations (which i did) I now don't have that option so now have to do an even more awkward dance of trying to hit niche situations where I cannot move freely.

Who am I kidding, this change sucks, bad.

Bad.

I can't believe an alpha I had such high hopes for is turning so bad. It takes one 2 forward, 3 steps sideways, and 1 step back, and is now supposed to be nearing competition.

I'm not saying the changes aren't justified from a creative standpoint, but this game since alpha has somehow seemed to alienate rather then welcome more players, including me. I mean, you can only shoot down while moving? WHAT? And the second screen of the tutorial needs you to move down. The intro still is doesn't help me that much and I played the first alpha, and that used to be OK because I could just bumble my way forward, but now the game is ratching up the difficulty with lack of controls and death penalties.

[Panopticon]

The game Towns gets trashed pretty hard too. If you believed everything you read about it on the Steam forums you would think the game is completely unplayable. This is not true at all, of course. I have many hours in the game, and while it needs fleshing out, the core components of the game's mechanics are solid, functional and in place.

I don't know how much you participate in discussions around the net about a variety of games, but if it was all fact then most games would be steaming piles. Yes that would also include AI War. The internet, particularly the gaming subculture that inhabits it, is a negativity echo chamber for most people. They aren't interested in discussion, facts, reality, other people's ideas etc. They want to bludgeon people with their opinions. In a large group if at all possible. And these aren't just opinions. They are sacred, individual snowflake thoughts.

So yeah, don't fall down the negativity hole Art. And I don't mean change your opinion. I just don't want to see that crap spread here. This is one of the few corners of sanity on the net.

[chemical_art]

So yeah, don't fall down the negativity hole Art. And I don't mean change your opinion. I just don't want to see that crap spread here. This is one of the few corners of sanity on the net.

Except such an attitude permeated throughout the whole of AVWW 1

If that is the formal forum attitude as established from the top, fine, but otherwise I refuse to censor my honest opinions. If I disagree with something I shall say it. I won't except under the most extraordinary of circumstances even hint at vulgarity or personal attacks, but I won't hesitate in saying "I don't like it. This had a good framework, but the filling in of the framework is accompanied by unfun changes."

[tigersfan]

FWIW, I have no problem with "I don't like it" comments. And for the most part, that's been the flavor of the negative comments here.

Now, chemical_art, is your primary problem with the new controls that you can't shoot down while standing still? If we change that, would that change your mind? Or is there something more bothering you?

[chemical_art]

FWIW, I have no problem with "I don't like it" comments. And for the most part, that's been the flavor of the negative comments here.

Now, chemical_art, is your primary problem with the new controls that you can't shoot down while standing still? If we change that, would that change your mind? Or is there something more bothering you?

It is more of a symptom of an underlying problem.

Options to aid aiming have been removed, while other more glaring problems such as aiming in the four cardinal changes are being ignored. It feels like bad focus, and is frustrating for me in a sense. It would seem that if you choose to make the game only aim in four directions, you make sure you can aim in four directions first. If you aim to remove angled shots, remove slices that need it first, and make enemies that in some situations best take advantage of it. Before you take away "awkard" parts, make sure the game can be played by a new player first.

As a whole, it just feels like a very wonky balancing system is going on, and all points back to a very short alpha compared to beta. Balance, as whole, should make a game more inclusive, not exclusive. Things like explaining the beginning of the game is inclusive. Things like removing controls before balancing classes is exclusive. In an alpha or a closed beta (I don't consider the current beta closed) things like this are OK. In the current gaming culture, such things in an wide or open beta is a turnoff.

[Panopticon]

So yeah, don't fall down the negativity hole Art. And I don't mean change your opinion. I just don't want to see that crap spread here. This is one of the few corners of sanity on the net.

Except such an attitude permeated throughout the whole of AVWW 1

If that is the formal forum attitude as established from the top, fine, but otherwise I refuse to censor my honest opinions. If I disagree with something I shall say it. I won't except under the most extraordinary of circumstances even hint at vulgarity or personal attacks, but I won't hesitate in saying "I don't like it"

I'm sorry if that's how I came off Art. It's not what I meant at all, and why I said don't want you to change your opinions on the game. I've been following your posts around here and the AI War forums for a while. You are an insightful player and obviously valuable to the Arcen community. I was trying to boost your morale and hoping out loud that the general negativity of the net at large isn't bringing you down, possibly souring your perspective.

[chemical_art]

So yeah, don't fall down the negativity hole Art. And I don't mean change your opinion. I just don't want to see that crap spread here. This is one of the few corners of sanity on the net.

Except such an attitude permeated throughout the whole of AVWW 1

If that is the formal forum attitude as established from the top, fine, but otherwise I refuse to censor my honest opinions. If I disagree with something I shall say it. I won't except under the most extraordinary of circumstances even hint at vulgarity or personal attacks, but I won't hesitate in saying "I don't like it"

I'm sorry if that's how I came off Art. It's not what I meant at all, and why I said don't want you to change your opinions on the game. I've been following your posts around here and the AI War forums for a while. You are an insightful player and obviously valuable to the Arcen community. I was trying to boost your morale and hoping out loud that the general negativity of the net at large isn't bringing you down, possibly souring your perspective.

I hope you don't think I was you attacking you in any way Panopticon. It is just just as while I take any negatively with a pound of salt, I take any saying to ignore such things with just as much salt in Arcen. Arcen, at least in AVWW, felt like a positive echo chamber, with a few saying it is great and the many not saying much of anything. Everything can be improved, and dissent, as long as it is on a factual basis, is always valuable in some way even if taken with lots of salt. Cordial discourse of usually best, but ugly discourse, if not attacking personally and only on facts, sometimes for me give a unique take as well which sometimes I know makes me alone.

I understand you sentiment PanopticonThe outside forums does open up my eyes to things I might have not notice, nothing more. My gripes still come from myself.