Author Topic: AVWW2 - Controls  (Read 32064 times)

Offline Misery

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #105 on: December 24, 2012, 12:29:13 am »
This game cannot do that - you have to have one cluster of controls for movement and one cluster of controls for spell usage. For a keyboard-only scheme, that necessitates two hands on the keyboard, which rules it out for me.

If you can't understand that, please don't comment on it and derail the thread: it's for people giving the developers feedback. If you don't agree with it, state that and why, but please don't waste everyone's time attacking people who are just trying to help out the developers, because that's what you come off as doing.

I was under the assumption that most people who play video games have two hands - but it seems like you only have access to both hands when one hand operates a mouse, or placing two hands on a keyboard causes you pain, while one hand on the keyboard and one on the mouse does not.

Frankly, to me, that's a rather bizarre medical condition, but if you say you suffer from that, who am I to doubt you? That would just be insensitive since I'm not you and I can't prove that you don't really have a serious pain issue with playing with 2 hands. Maybe AVWW2 does need an accessibility option for one-handed play. Might as well add colourblind mode too - lots of games don't have one.

And thanks for the sneering tone, your insensitivity, and your putting words in my mouth that I never said in order to denigrate my opinion. It really makes the forums unpleasant, and doesn't make me want to stick around the community if it's like this.

Frankly speaking, there's possibly nothing I could add to this that would improve the situation for you, is there? I'm just one random person on the forums that didn't agree with your opinion because I am not able to empathize with this situation where two hands on a keyboard is impractical. As contradicting your opinion by using humour to satirize the reasoning (unfortunately, my usual modus operandi) hurts your feelings and is interpreted as a personal attack, maybe that's not the best way to communicate the issues I had with your logic.

So, I apologise if you took that as a personal attack. I could definitely have phrased that in a more neutral way that would have spared your feelings.

As said before, I always functioned under the presumption that most people were familiar with two-handed keyboard operation thanks to typing. But I don't think the game developers are responsible for your particular disease, so it's not entirely fair to criticise them for making controls that discriminate against one-handed people. I doubt that was intentional nor malicious.

If you needed special considerations to use the mouse and keyboard for actual gameplay, you are currently able to rebind movement to the left hand and firing spells to the mouse (assuming your mouse has a way of 4-5 inputs. Since you have this condition, I highly recommend getting one which does - I can personally vouch that the Logitech G700 is reasonable, or a Razer Naga epic. You will find it useful for many games other than Valley 2). It won't alleviate your great displeasure with the mouse for the strategic overview map, but it's a way of helping ameliorate your particular situation.


I think part of the reason why he got so bothered by what you said, is the fact that you were making his situation, and related conditions, out to be much more simple than they actually are.   As someone who suffers from such a thing, I can tell you:  It's not simple at all.  It's also not rare, and often not an actual disease.

I had been playing the first AVWW entirely with a controller.  No keyboard, no mouse.  It's the reason why I needed the targeting system, as the game wasnt very good at handling the analogs for aiming (and my controller at the time was screwy).  I played it this way because at the time when that game came out, I could not use the mouse for gaming.   Why?   Because it could cause incredible pain.  If I have a bad flare-up, even a pain med as strong as something like Valium simply has no effect.   And here's the funky thing about it:  ONLY the mouse causes it usually.   Oh, the keyboard can do it sometimes, if I majorly overuse it, but it's generally not finger movements that bring the pain in my case, it's forearm movements, which the mouse requires.  And the pain that it brings ranges all the way from my fingers, into my neck, and can even cause headaches, nasty ones.  No amount of posture change or better equipment puts a stop to this, or even dials it down at all.   It simply doesnt work that way.    Annoyingly, physical therapy is the only thing that has any effect.   All of this is the reason why I've often mentioned things like using JtK or XPadder to force compatibility with controllers, because that's been the only way to play ANYTHING for quite awhile now.   Only recently have I been able to get back to using the actual mouse for gaming, and even then, for now I still have to do it in moderation (no more than an hour or two at a time, or the derp begins).    Playing with the mouse too much can cause trouble, but stupidly, controllers have absolutely no effect on it whatsoever, no pain from them.


And it's kind of a sensitive issue for those that have similar problems.  Its not that the devs absolutely HAVE to specifically consider that disabled people need very specific things put in, it's moreso a frustration with alot of games in general.   There are ALOT of games, both on PC and consoles, where the gameplay could indeed allow a vast array of different control schemes..... but for absolutely baffling reasons, some games, you cant change the controls whatsoever, even when it wouldnt wreck the gameplay or screw anything up.  It's often a case of the devs simply NOT DOING IT, for no apparent reason, and it is very irritating.


Anyway, not trying to be a jerk here, just thought I'd offer a different point of view on this one.   As for AVWW2, I dont think the devs "left out" any sorts of control options, really.  Arcen has been pretty good as a whole about that.  The problem, I think, is that for some parts of the gameplay, it's probably hard to figure out just HOW they could implement more options in ways that both A: work and B: make sense.   I've thought about it a bunch myself, but I just cannot think up a good way that the mouse (a normal, basic mouse) could be used for the platforming sections.... not without massive inaccuracy, anyway.   Plenty of games use 8-way aiming, but I've not seen a mouse-based control scheme for that sort of thing.    Still, if anyone can come up with such a thing, it'd be the creative minds at Arcen here, I think  :D

Offline Nanashi

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #106 on: December 24, 2012, 01:12:53 am »
@Misery: I prefer to be honest, if brutal, than disingenuous. Consider it a personality and emotional defect.

If person A is suffering from pain from doing something and I don't when I do the same thing, pain doesn't fly across the invisible gap of the internet. I'd say I'd empathise with person A's situation, but that would be a barefaced lie because I don't have context to go on. I can understand the situation in a rational manner, but if you asked me to feel vicariously bad for the other person, that's beyond my scope. This makes compassion difficult, but dispassion is perfectly easy and genuine. That's why I refuse to use hackneyed phrases like "my heart goes out to whatever". That doesn't help, they're not near, I can't care because I don't know how bad it is and to claim I did would be frankly insulting to the person and belittling the actual problem.

I don't think being overly sensitive about the issue doesn't help either because it just turns the person into a victim. I think it's far better to be constructive and positive. The "You're a horrible antagonist and I'm a hapless victim" line isn't particularly helpful to a discussion either, see? That's why I keep my personal emotions off the internet - it keeps me mentally healthy. On that note, I refuse to defend myself on this topic anymore because it isn't interesting nor germane.

Handicap features are a nice touch, but I draw the line at criticising game controls BECAUSE one has a handicap, which is exactly why I was annoyed at that logic. That's like saying that because I'm blind, Rodin is a terrible artist. (Note: The reason I used this allegory is because Rodin is a sculptor, so a blind person would technically still be able to get a grasp of the beauty of his work - it just isn't as accessible.)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 01:19:36 am by Nanashi »

Offline Misery

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #107 on: December 24, 2012, 01:45:20 am »
@Misery: I prefer to be honest, if brutal, than disingenuous. Consider it a personality and emotional defect.

If person A is suffering from pain from doing something and I don't when I do the same thing, pain doesn't fly across the invisible gap of the internet. I'd say I'd empathise with person A's situation, but that would be a barefaced lie because I don't have context to go on. I can understand the situation in a rational manner, but if you asked me to feel vicariously bad for the other person, that's beyond my scope. This makes compassion difficult, but dispassion is perfectly easy and genuine. That's why I refuse to use hackneyed phrases like "my heart goes out to whatever". That doesn't help, they're not near, I can't care because I don't know how bad it is and to claim I did would be frankly insulting to the person and belittling the actual problem.

I don't think being overly sensitive about the issue doesn't help either because it just turns the person into a victim. I think it's far better to be constructive and positive. The "You're a horrible antagonist and I'm a hapless victim" line isn't particularly helpful to a discussion either, see? That's why I keep my personal emotions off the internet - it keeps me mentally healthy. On that note, I refuse to defend myself on this topic anymore because it isn't interesting nor germane.

Handicap features are a nice touch, but I draw the line at criticising game controls BECAUSE one has a handicap, which is exactly why I was annoyed at that logic. That's like saying that because I'm blind, Rodin is a terrible artist. (Note: The reason I used this allegory is because Rodin is a sculptor, so a blind person would technically still be able to get a grasp of the beauty of his work - it just isn't as accessible.)

I can understand that.   However, in that case, it's seriously probably better to simply not say anything at all.   Wether you intended or wanted to insult him matters not:  he still percieved it as an insult.    Not to mention that going on like that about a topic that you havent enough knowledge about just sorta confuzzles things even more than they already might be.

Anyway, I'm not saying anyone here is a 'victim' and woe is them or whatever, blah blah blah.   I'm pretty similar, actually, in that I tend to be very honest, and I'll bloody well speak my mind wether people want me to or not (and someone telling me NOT to is a surefire way to get me to do it, hah).   So yeah, I understand that mindset.    I merely figured I'd drop info gathered from my own experiences with the subject, is all.


On the subject though, yeah, I dont think the controls for this specific game can really be blamed due to handicaps.   I think for the most part mouse control simply isnt very viable for this game as it was in AVWW1.   However.... having it available on the strategy map and such might make things a bit less obnoxious for those that are very used to using the mouse for such things.  I frankly only care so much either way..... the controller for everything works fine for me.  But more options might help the game sell that much better, and I sure do hope to see this be a successful release!  :)

Still though, I often wonder WHY some developers simply dont even give you the option of, say, reassigning buttons on a controller, or whatever.  Pinball FX 2 on the 360 is my favorite example.... I really love that game, but I'm not fond of the design of the 360 controller, and I'd really like to be able to use the blasted face buttons for the flippers.   ....but you cant do that, and arent even given the option, and it's like..... WHY?   Why not include that?  It's such a simple thing, really, and from a developer as good as that one is, it's just.... really baffling.   Still a great game, but it's a bizarre and annoying exclusion.   Not that I didn't still buy every blasted table from them, mind you, haha.

Offline Nanashi

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #108 on: December 24, 2012, 02:34:16 am »
Still though, I often wonder WHY some developers simply dont even give you the option of, say, reassigning buttons on a controller, or whatever.  Pinball FX 2 on the 360 is my favorite example.... I really love that game, but I'm not fond of the design of the 360 controller, and I'd really like to be able to use the blasted face buttons for the flippers.   ....but you cant do that, and arent even given the option, and it's like..... WHY?   Why not include that?  It's such a simple thing, really, and from a developer as good as that one is, it's just.... really baffling.   Still a great game, but it's a bizarre and annoying exclusion.   Not that I didn't still buy every blasted table from them, mind you, haha.

Probably laziness - easiest way to get around it is to use something like joy2key or get a programmable controller. The good ones let you reassign buttons on the hardware-side of things (and some even let you macro actions), so whether the devs include configurations or not, you can change stuff.

If you like using controllers, I highly do recommend joy2key though. It emulates keyboard input with your joystick, which is just plain handy.

Offline Misery

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #109 on: December 24, 2012, 02:53:07 am »
Still though, I often wonder WHY some developers simply dont even give you the option of, say, reassigning buttons on a controller, or whatever.  Pinball FX 2 on the 360 is my favorite example.... I really love that game, but I'm not fond of the design of the 360 controller, and I'd really like to be able to use the blasted face buttons for the flippers.   ....but you cant do that, and arent even given the option, and it's like..... WHY?   Why not include that?  It's such a simple thing, really, and from a developer as good as that one is, it's just.... really baffling.   Still a great game, but it's a bizarre and annoying exclusion.   Not that I didn't still buy every blasted table from them, mind you, haha.

Probably laziness - easiest way to get around it is to use something like joy2key or get a programmable controller. The good ones let you reassign buttons on the hardware-side of things (and some even let you macro actions), so whether the devs include configurations or not, you can change stuff.

If you like using controllers, I highly do recommend joy2key though. It emulates keyboard input with your joystick, which is just plain handy.


Yeah, J2K is the one I've been using for all of this (among others).   It's only problem is that it can be unclear as to just which button you're assigning things to.   Which usually leads to much angry cursing.   Gets a little bizarre at times for the PS3 controller in particular.   Though the driver for that blasted thing is screwy itself, feh.   Better than the 360 controller though;  I swear, that damn thing, the dpad is just so freaking terrible.  Can push up and have it think you want DOWN instead.  Ugh. 

Someone needs to just make a gizmo so you can just control it with your mind, and then no more stupid controller/keyboard cant-assign-the-damn-buttons-quickly-and-easily problems.  Of course then you'd get sucked into the Matrix or some freaky evil MMO or something, so maybe not.

Offline Nanashi

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #110 on: December 25, 2012, 08:17:22 pm »
@Misery: I guess you could try playing Valley 2 with a Kinect. That'd be weird enough - but it'd certainly burn calories. As Metroid 1 had no diagonal aim whatsoever, I don't really think diagonal aim is all-important.

Rebinding aside, my main point is that I'd like an alternative movement system for the keyboard so the main character does not run at all when diagonal inputs are entered - unfortunately there's no way to macro around that. I finally remembered which game had the locks - Contra Shattered Soldier; you had 2 buttons to lock position or lock aim. Gunstar Heroes had an alternative movement scheme where movement was completely disabled when shooting, but you could aim in all 8 directions. It also had a system where you'd hold down a button and as long as the button was held, you'd maintain the shooting direction regardless of character movement.

In this case it's not so much about controls as the actual in-game movement. Since unlike controllers, keyboard inputs are always precise and it is very unlikely you will hit a diagonal when you don't want a diagonal, having horizontal movement when a diagonal is pressed doesn't always help (unless it's a run and gun game).

Here's an example of Shattered soldier gameplay that shows off the benefit of aimlock controls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGhX-UFdHRs
note that backtracking (moonwalking) while aiming forwards is currently impossible in Valley 2. Unfortunately, even though Shattered Soldier was possibly the apotheosis of shooting game controls, it never sold well (too difficult for the average gamer). Still one of the best control shooters I've ever played, IMO.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 08:26:41 pm by Nanashi »

Offline LayZboy

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #111 on: December 25, 2012, 08:57:04 pm »
Gunstar Heroes had an alternative movement scheme where movement was completely disabled when shooting, but you could aim in all 8 directions.

Was pretty pointless because of the Lightning/Homing + Homing Combo in that game tbh.

Offline madcow

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #112 on: December 25, 2012, 09:06:05 pm »
It is somewhat possible to do "moonwalking" if you take one of the spells that fire in both directions - I forget what that spell type is called. Then walk backwards and fire the opposite angle you want to shoot in.

Offline darkchair

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #113 on: December 25, 2012, 10:50:53 pm »
The shooting behavior while jumping was an unintended consequence of the way they implemented directional-tap aim modifiers when you are standing still. In other words, it's a bug and Arcen is taking a much deserved Holiday break. I'm sure it'll be addressed super fast when they get back to work.

Cool. Yeah sorry on hindsight I should have disclaimed with figuring that this was a bug, but a bunch of posts were not clear to me one way or another, so I figured I'd mention it.

Overall I just want to throw out the point that it won't kill players to have to get used to a different (hopefully intuitive  :P) control scheme. Of course this is wishful thinking but my vote is to focus on the good stuff for now rather than perfecting the controls for a specific group of people. They're customizable after all. Maybe reminding players more forcefully in the beginning would help  ::)

Offline zaaq

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #114 on: December 25, 2012, 11:23:19 pm »
... focus on the good stuff for now rather than perfecting the controls for a specific group of people. They're customizable after all.

I respectfully disagree. Players should be able to pick up the game and "just play". From that angle, the controls are the most important part of the game. Think of it like the opening page of a book. Players will judge the game based on how fast they can learn the controls. Intuitive and minimal configuration is key for that first impression.

This probably means that the controls are crap for advanced players--that's OK from a retention angle. Advanced players usually desire the kind of precise control that drives newbies crazy... so it's not such a bad thing to have them run through a menus to customize their experience.

Offline darkchair

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #115 on: December 26, 2012, 12:20:11 pm »
I respectfully disagree. Players should be able to pick up the game and "just play". From that angle, the controls are the most important part of the game. Think of it like the opening page of a book. Players will judge the game based on how fast they can learn the controls. Intuitive and minimal configuration is key for that first impression.

This probably means that the controls are crap for advanced players--that's OK from a retention angle. Advanced players usually desire the kind of precise control that drives newbies crazy... so it's not such a bad thing to have them run through a menus to customize their experience.

Yeah I'm kind of being harsh  :P. Controls should be playable at the start of the game and they're pretty counter-intuitive right now.
Maybe a small short video on the side in the very beginning with a picture of a keyboard showing where the buttons are would help.
If anyone is interested I mapped the four abilities to Q, W, A, and S, I made aim up/down to E/D and I made interact R. I find it works well.

Offline zaaq

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #116 on: December 29, 2012, 04:03:25 pm »
Found a well-reasoned post on the Steam forums. Copying it here for exposure.

Quote from: Hawkaris
Alrighty. Rather than start my own thread, I'll just piggyback onto this one!

I've played my share of emulated console games on a PC sans controller, so I'm no stranger to keyboarding things designed for a controller. That said, I have my list of gripes about what I've played, and the vast majority are certainly about the aiming system.

I like to think that the AVWW folks have played Metroid, this being a Metroidvania game. And so they also have experience playing games while only being able to fire in 2/4/8 directions. But I don't think they've noticed how the game really takes into consideration this limitation.

In Metroid, bullets mostly travel in a straight line. Even something like the wave beam is easily predictable with its sinusoidal trajectory. Playing AVWW2, I absolutely HATED the weapons that curved down, or curved up, or bounced stupidly high. We don't have a mouse to properly utilize the silly (or cool, if you do it right) projectile movements on the fly. Mostly, we shoot left, or we shoot right. Sometimes, we shoot up, and if we absolutely have to (or by accident) we shoot at 45 degree angles. And by golly, our bullets should travel like that, too. The weapons are supposed to be an extension of the player; they shouldn't be something the player has to fight. (Also, the player fights the terrain when shooting along the ground, but that stems from the same problem.)

In the older Metroidvanias, monsters travel along the horizontal (the most common bullet trajectory) far more than they do on the vertical, or the diagonal. The more erratic enemies stay within a fixed pattern of erraticness, or else have a relatively large hitbox. The enemies that could move freely in 2d space always came directly at the player, in a smooth, predictable line. Those erratically bouncing wisps showed the limitations of the aiming controls more than anything else, I feel.

In AVWW1, one hand aimed and shot, and the other hand moved. In AVWW2, one hand moves and aims, the other hand jumps and shoots. I think that's where the unnaturalness of keyboard controls is being felt. If, say, all the movement came from one hand (left, right, duck, jump), and all the shooting and aiming came from the other hand (shoot left, shoot right, shoot up, shoot down), it'd be a heck of a lot more logical. With a controller, it makes sense to always aim forward, with triggers modifying it up or down 45 degrees, and a separate button to jump and fire. But that's the difference between playing a game with your thumbs or with your fingers. Surely you've noticed the horrible controls of poorly console-ported PC games or PC-ported console games.

One quick comment on permitting mouse-controlled firing: The Binding of Isacc did what seems to be your goal. If the cursor was to the left of the player, it fired to the left; above fired above, right fired right, below fired below. Shooting could be mouse-controlled or keyboard/controller controlled, but doing so granted no additional benefits or handicaps with regards to aiming.

Okay, weaponry. The best thing about AVWW1 (for me) was the ability to customize my loadout. Period. The procedurally generated worlds are a close second, but the infinitely customizable weaponry set-up was the highlight. In AVWW2's current form, I go through the 15 primary/secondary/tirtiary spells, find the least annoying one, and use it almost exclusively. "Does it do decent damage?" "Does it go where I want it?"  Now, I'm not saying I used every spell in AVWW1; far from it. I had the one I liked, a back-up of a different element, and that was pretty much it. Oh, except for the back-up set-up I made when I needed lots of damage really fast, or the high-kickback loadout, or a couple other mission-specific spells I liked to switch to, just in case. But the thing was, every spell I chose to take with me, I used. Maybe I chose one spell, maybe I chose five, but there wasn't a useless spell on my bar.

So how did Samus run around with five weapons and only one "fire" button? The player selected which weapon to use, and that was that. In AVWW2, you can't shoot two weapons at once, so you don't need two different ways to shoot things. Well, okay, maybe two; one for the non-resource weapon, and one for the non-aimable resource weapon, but four seems excessive. I suggest going more into top-down shooter than Metroidvania, and have Q, E select the weapon while WASD fires it exactly where you want it be fired. And Space fires your "nuke". It's a bit more two-stick than AB D-Pad, but it allows so much more control.

In short: the spells and enemies and world are designed around mouse aiming. The controls are designed around firing along the x and y axis. They both need to be tweaked and meet somewhere in the middle.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #117 on: December 29, 2012, 07:39:06 pm »
I've now found some time to play around with it, but I forgot to plug in my controller so I had to resort to keyboard. There's nothing really WRONG with the stock bindings, tbh. I tried different bindings that I felt were more logical, but I kept going back to defaults, because they made more sense to my fingers. Possibly shift abilities to 1-4, but it still didn't feel quite right.

What I do have to complain about is the disparity between horizontal and vertical movement. The character jumps and falls REALLY fast, but is quite sluggish moving sideways. This is somewhat annoying and does portray a feeling of "sluggish control scheme". I'd increase acceleration in horizontal movement somewhat, perhaps 15-20% to begin with, and also up the base movement speed somewhat, and at the same time nerf jumping speed a little bit. Not to make them SAME, but just put them a bit closer together,
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Offline Nanashi

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #118 on: December 29, 2012, 07:44:43 pm »
@zaaq: I don't quite agree with what that post is saying - it doesn't seem well-reasoned to me in the slightest.

Quote
If, say, all the movement came from one hand (left, right, duck, jump), and all the shooting and aiming came from the other hand (shoot left, shoot right, shoot up, shoot down), it'd be a heck of a lot more logical.

He's asking for jumping to be mapped to the movement keys, which contradicts exactly what he said in the previous paragraph - Metroid has jump mapped to a button. So does Super Mario Brothers/Sonic/Bubsy/etc etc etc. Y's is an incredibly challenging 3D experience on the PC and it uses jump bound to an action key. In fact, the only games in which jumping is bound to the movement hand tend to be fighting games and really streamlined (read: tacky) flash games. There is nothing unusual about that - you want to be able to aim up without jumping.

What IS unwieldy is holding down the A button to fire and then somehow hitting the Q key to angle it. Aiming with the movement hand is standard. Multiplying the aim keys so that every single action requires 8 different keys just to aim properly with the action hand is an incredibly idiotic solution. Super Metroid (Metroid had absolutely no diagonal aiming) may be a reference, but it's also an old game and the controls IMO were far from perfect and not at all optimized for a keyboard, since it was created for the Super Famicom. Trying to imitate it wholesale doesn't make sense.

Offline zaaq

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Re: AVWW2 - Controls
« Reply #119 on: December 29, 2012, 08:37:47 pm »
He's asking for jumping to be mapped to the movement keys, which contradicts exactly what he said in the previous paragraph - Metroid has jump mapped to a button.

Read a bit more closely... the ideas are related so they bleed together a bit. He mentions Metroid to discuss the movement of the enemies.

The part you quoted--key bindings for movement--is tackled on its own terms. His use of "say" indicates that he likely didn't put much thought into the recommendation... it's a hypothetical.