Author Topic: AVWW Post-Release 1.108 "Construction Sometimes Starts With Demolition" Released  (Read 10272 times)

Offline Tobias

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Is there anything in deciding WHERE to build things like barracks and various other buildings or does it not matter?

Offline Misery

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I am getting quite bored of wandering in stash rooms and not finding any crafting things AT ALL. Like the 10th stash room i've been in with no crafting whatsoever and with so much things spawning in the Lava Flats, you'd think there would be an avalanche of things. :/

EDIT: Ok, that was a lie as I seem to find Magma now and again, but that's about it really, no Welking Gel and no Sunstones at all. >_<


Part of it is, the game seems to be spawning certain other things (profession books!) a little too much, so the ingredients arent appearing as often as they should.

I ran through looking for Welkin Gels last night, just needed two, and while I got my two, I got like 8 or 9 profession books in the process.   And a bunch of strange things like cowboy hats (?).

I'm thinking this'll stop being a problem pretty soon though;  they're still in the middle of doing this major city-update thing, which seems to have alot of items to add to stashes.

Offline MouldyK

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Also, thanks for the copy ability as it has made me rethink my whole load-out or at least try something out.

First thing: Making the Middle Scroll Mouse Button switch the Ability Bar (Up to go forward, down to reverse)

Main Scroll: Launch Rock (Left Mouse), Flamethrower (Right Mouse), Flash of Light (Middle Mouse Click)
Scroll 1: Launch Ice Block (Left Mouse), Geyser (Right Mouse), Flash of Light (Middle Mouse Click)
Scroll 2: Launch Ice Block (Left Mouse), Flamethrower (Right Mouse), Flash of Light (Middle Mouse Click)
Scroll 3: Launch Rock (Left Mouse), Geyser (Right Mouse), Flash of Light (Middle Mouse Click)
Scroll 4 (Ocean Load-out): Launch Rock (Left Mouse), Place Platform (Right Mouse), Flash of Light (Middle Mouse Click)

In theory: Fool-Proof...in reality: I've yet to find out. XD

Why not just bind abilitites to keys, I use LMB, RMB, TMB, MMB, Q, R, F, Z, X, C for abilities 1 to 10.

I find it easier for me if I only use WASD and the clicks in combat in case I press the wrong key. :/ Also, the scrolling seems to work fine for me as my best combo is alsways just a few milliseconds away. xD

Offline Penumbra

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Edit:  Something else I noticed:  Flash of Light went from "pretty good" to "utterly worthless".   That spell desperately needs a duration increase, 10 seconds isnt enough.   Previously, I always brought it up to Tier 3 before I started using it on a given continent, relying entirely on Moon Lamps before that.   Ball of Light is useless (I never bother with it), and Inner Light enchant takes up a slot that's too important to waste on an enchant that only lights things up (and other enchants with light as a side effect, the light always seems WAY too weak to be of any use).

I disagree with the suggested solution here.  I know you used to be able to increase the duration before to really long 50 seconds, and I guess sticking it in the middle of that duration is "balance." However, Flash of Light trivializes a large portion of the game, or at least brings it to a maintenance issue of clicking a button every 30 seconds. Fully removing all darkness, all the time is just boring. Moon Lamps are interesting because the fall down. You said you don't bother with Ball of Light, which is very useful for giving a permanent light source in a location of your choice. Fire Flare for seeing "forward" and then replaced with Balls of Light lets the player explore the darkness and then even permanently replace it with light in strategic locations.

"Wasting" an enchant on light is a player choice to be exercised whenever not dealing with darkness is truly important enough. The enchant could get more powerful version maybe, but just using Flash of Light is a stupidly simple choice

Raising FoL's mana cost along with its duration doesn't balance it either, as combat in AVWW is so fast, finding a quite spot for a second every 30 is not much of a problem (unless you forget, and never ever cast a permanent light source). I guess it puts the spell out of reach of characters who can't swing the mana amount, but that seems like a weak balance for a spell that has to be cast so infrequently.

There are some nice suggestions here about ways it can be made more interesting. More along the concept of a ping, or a momentary "where do I go" spell.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 10:33:01 am by Penumbra »

Offline Misery

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Edit:  Something else I noticed:  Flash of Light went from "pretty good" to "utterly worthless".   That spell desperately needs a duration increase, 10 seconds isnt enough.   Previously, I always brought it up to Tier 3 before I started using it on a given continent, relying entirely on Moon Lamps before that.   Ball of Light is useless (I never bother with it), and Inner Light enchant takes up a slot that's too important to waste on an enchant that only lights things up (and other enchants with light as a side effect, the light always seems WAY too weak to be of any use).

I disagree with the suggested solution here.  I know you used to be able to increase the duration before to really long 50 seconds, and I guess sticking it in the middle of that duration is "balance." However, Flash of Light trivializes a large portion of the game, or at least brings it to a maintenance issue of clicking a button every 30 seconds. Fully removing all darkness, all the time is just boring. Moon Lamps are interesting because the fall down. You said you don't bother with Ball of Light, which is very useful for giving a permanent light source in a location of your choice. Fire Flare for seeing "forward" and then replaced with Balls of Light lets the player explore the darkness and then even permanently replace it with light in strategic locations.

"Wasting" an enchant on light is a player choice to be exercised whenever not dealing with darkness is truly important enough. The enchant could get more powerful version maybe, but just using Flash of Light is a stupidly simple choice

Raising FoL's mana cost along with its duration doesn't balance it either, as combat in AVWW is so fast, finding a quite spot for a second every 30 is not much of a problem (unless you forget, and never ever cast a permanent light source). I guess it puts the spell out of reach of characters who can't swing the mana amount, but that seems like a weak balance for a spell that has to be cast so infrequently.

There are some nice suggestions here about ways it can be made more interesting. More along the concept of a ping, or a momentary "where do I go" spell.


The reason, at least in my case, is that the "darkness" doesnt actually increase the game's challenge level..... it never did.    Even with the horrible Ball of Light spell, it's not actually HARD to light up an area..... it's just tedious.   And that's the thing about it:   It's *only* tedious.    I use Flash of Light so I dont have to completely waste time running around like a moron dropping little light orbs everywhere.   It's boring, there's zero fun OR challenge in it, and the only thing it does is make me avoid caves, if I have to do it.    I dont tolerate tedium very well.    In that sort of situation, I could be fighting monsters, or doing more actual exploring, or stuff like that, instead of dropping little orbs.

And hell, if it got THAT bad (aka, if Flash of Light wasnt available), I'd have one simple solution:   Never, EVER enter a cave with a character that is NOT a Draconite.   This, though, would be kinda dull.  I'd rather be able to use whoever I want, not have to stick to JUST them because of the tedious way the lighting is handled.

Also, the other reason I use it:   I cant be hitting the damn button for some light orb every 5 seconds.  One reason this game works for me is that I DONT have to hit buttons rapidly or super-often. If I have to do that too much, my arm flares up badly.   I was getting that originally when I was just starting on this game, and dropping the accursed Light Balls every 5 inches just to see stuff.   Flash means I dont have to worry about that.

But really, as an element of the game that does not increase the challenge, I dont think the lighting needs to be unnecessarily complicated.   It seems that quite alot of players dont use Flash ANYWAY, because...... because...... oh I have no idea why.  But it seems that plenty dont really like that spell.

The only way this spell would be OP is if it also revealed the entire minimap.

Edit:  Also, I should point out, I still USE the moon lamps.  They're used in boss fights, or other situations (cave rescues for instance) when I dont wanna have to use that much mana on that spell every 30 seconds.   Light Snake is still essential as well, I never enter caves without that one.

Ball of Light though, was terrible right from the get go, and that wierd Flare spell is completely useless (particularly when, as in my case, you cannot aim it).   The Moon Lamps are decent enough, BUT, I dont want to have to spend an hour running around the Ice Age areas every freaking time they run low JUST so I can see where I'm going in caves.  Running around grabbing crafting bits and the books and other interesting items is fine;  running around JUST so I can later see where I'm going is idiotic, and rather annoying. 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 05:55:25 pm by Misery »

Offline Penumbra

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And hell, if it got THAT bad (aka, if Flash of Light wasnt available), I'd have one simple solution:   Never, EVER enter a cave with a character that is NOT a Draconite.   This, though, would be kinda dull.  I'd rather be able to use whoever I want, not have to stick to JUST them because of the tedious way the lighting is handled.

That's why there is an enchant that provides light. Do they give as many combat advantages? No, but they make lighting easier on any character.

Does the exploration/lighting need some work? Probably. I actual find using Flare/Light Orb works just fine, as I can quickly fan out a whole bunch of flares, and leave Orbs in my wake as I go. But then again, I have a ton of keys mapped, and I don't care leaving 3 dedicated to lights.

That said, however, Flash of Light is still a really poor solution. You have a game mechanic, darkness. Darkness is there to make caves different from buildings and the outside. It requires special consideration on your part, in either strategy (how to light) or load out (which enchants to take). If these decisions are not meaningful, the whole mechanic should just be thrown out.

Being underwater requires you to put a certain enchant on or deal with damage. Imagine if there was an "acid immunity" spell that lasted for 30 seconds and cost 190 mana. You would never use an acid gills enchant again and you would have to hit that button every 30 seconds without thought. Now, a "bubble" spell that gave player directed locations immunity to the acid would be interesting, as it would require strategy.

Maybe the problem is that the light enchants don't give enough light? It's the crutch of Flash of Light that throws the balance of all the other darkness solutions out of whack.

Offline Misery

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I've always found the Inner Light enchants to be damn near useless, mostly just because their lighting method annoys me.  I just ditch them ASAP.

And any other enchant with a light effect..... also ditched, because A: the light effect on any other type of enchant is so weak as to be worthless, and B: it's taking up an effect slot that could be anything else.

But yeah, if Flash didn't work the way it does...... just Draconites, all the way.   I wouldnt hesitate in this for a second.


Flash of light is fine, moonlamps are fine.   I generally use a combination of both depending on what's going on and depending on what I'm doing, and what the layout is.   I never enter a cave without AT LEAST 60 moon lamps.  And that's WITH Flash working the way it does now, as a 30-second toggle.   I've been doing it this way since shortly after I got the game.   

The little light orbs are worthless, Flare as well, so never use them.    And of course the Draconites just cancel the whole thing out by merely existing.

If the light orbs and Flare were altered somehow (and I have no idea how, that's for the brainy Arcen guys to come up with!) it might make things better, rather than just slapping a (rather pointless) time nerf on Flash (or nerfing the Lamps, for that matter).

Or, even just up the cost on Flash.   I dont think it'd have to be much..... I could see 250 working pretty well.   It's a powerful spell, but it's not on the level of something like Douse (which costs 400, I think?).


Now, all of this being said, a related and similar issue has occurred to me.

Alot of these "craft only" spells, the ones without levels..... well, many of them are really darned powerful.  It's not just Flash, other things like Douse, Sunrise, Lightsnake, and so on, are all extremely useful and powerful spells.   Buuuuuuuut..... the current version of the game, you pay just ONE (very cheap) cost, only ONCE, and you permanently have these at your disposal.  Unlike, say, a powerful ATTACK spell, which requires either getting the common version from a mission at each levelup, or crafting a stronger version at each level up.  That "cost" balances out the power of the attack spells a bit better.    But there is no cost to things like Douse.   Heck, if I remember the recipe for Douse, it's just 1 sapphire and 3 plums, isnt it?    That's cheap as all heck for a spell as incredibly useful as that one is.

And (for the most part) I dont think simply increasing the mana cost for these is the way to go.   They mitigated themselves at least somewhat by requiring that you re-craft them once per continent when the tiers were in place.  So there was at least SOME cost, and effort, in maintaining them.


So a thought I'd had:  What if these non-levelled spellgems could break down after a time?  Like, you craft one, and exactly 5 levelups afterwards (arbitrary number), the gem broke, and would need replacing.   Obviously, there'd be a counter on the gem display in your inventory that shows how close it is to shattering.

This might balance these out a bit better.... and different non-leveled spells could have different counts, like say, Light Snake might break after 5 levels, but the more powerful Douse might break after 2 or 3.



Just an idea I'd had.   I dont think nerfing any of the spells, or increasing their cost is really the best way to balance them, so I thought an idea like this MIGHT be the sort of thing to go with, maybe.


Offline MouldyK

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It's be fine if Flash of Light had a limited use not bind to levels, but just the amount of uses, like 50 each craft? That way, at least you will have to go back often to restock and if you are going to go down a cave, then you might wish to stack a good 200 up or so.

Offline Brise Bonbons

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Not sure if this is the best place to mention it, but while playing MP last night we had an issue where wind towers would be consumed but not show up on the map.

My friend was trying to place them on a small island about 3 sea squares from the main body of our continent. We'd put a couple buoys out in the water, and the square he tried to place them in was stormy. I tried to reproduce the problem later in in the same world in SP, but when I placed a wind tower in that square it appeared normally.

Just wondering if anyone else has ever had this happen, or if there might be some requirement to successfully place a storm  tower that we weren't aware of.

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As for the patch in general, we have been pleased with the changes so far. I really like how secret missions now give scrolls, and I've found exploring stashes very rewarding. In our game I noticed that there often tend to be several missions on the map that offer the same spell as a reward, which makes those missions feel somewhat pointless. My inventory already seems to be filling with duplicate spells, and if there's anything I can do with unwanted ones other than litter the settlement with them, I haven't found it yet. My friends all seem to have the same spells, so trading them isn't something we've done much of.

I'm concerned that as-is, missions will become something I ignore except the (so far) rare occasion when they offer a spell I happen to want. Whereas I feel like doing them should, ideally, impact the world or advance my settlement in some way. But then you might feel forced to grind them, I guess... I don't know, I can't say I have the solution. My gut says they should be rare and have significant rewards to them (maybe offering a choice of several spells to choose from), but then that has its own issues, as well...

Looking forward to 1.2; I can't wait to build some cities!

Offline wyvern83

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I had a concern about existing and formerly completed continents and the destroyed basic buildings. I'm on my 4th continent and all 4 of my continents had the maximum about of basic buildings they could have. I'm not sure what's available to build on continent 1 but at the very least we are talking about 21-28 buildings or time spent collecting 105-140 units of granite, mostly obtained  from caving. 

Couldn't I have been gifted copies/replacements for the buildings I had instead of having them wiped for nothing?

The recent inventory purge luckily didn't hurt that bad however given the fact that I'm currently in need of maybe half a dozen windmills in order to progress at all and have only 20k to my name, I find the 30k price-tag per building and 20k per farm fairly off-putting. I'm going to need 6-8 farms with the upcoming up-date and I simple don't have the cs to spend on simply buying any of them or any of the 21-28 replacement buildings I need.  I also don't find the idea of waiting for the RNG to be kind enough to give me mission rewards for all 7 of them plus the extra needed farms across all 4 continents very appealing either as I essentially did that for most of them once already.

Offline BenMiff

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Having had a chance to play quite a bit now, I'd agree with the previous stash balance issues. (The game could probably do with removing the converted-to-consciousness-shard-upgrade-stones at this point, since they're mostly disappointing to get.) Stash rooms could do with more items in them anyway at this point, simply because there's so much more you need to get from them.

In addition, the secret mission rewards seem a bit off as well; finding a mission with no "main 7" (adventurer's barracks, apothkinesis tower, etc.) rewards is extremely common, and several seem to just offer 2 of the "main 7" (often the same two). It makes finding farms, wind shelters, ocean buoys and personality buildings grindy, simply through having to find and pass over several missions to get something I want. In addition, some secret missions seem to be offering survivors (despite not being marked on the minimap as a rescue), which seems a bit counter-intuitive; if I wanted survivors, I would have gone to the survivor rescue missions. Some way to control secret mission rewards to prevent having to run all over the place to get one you want might be nice, or if not some way to trade in unwanted guardian scrolls for ones you do want (perhaps another Ilari stone offering a 2 in for 1-of-your-choice out?)

Offline NyQuil

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I was running around a bit last night, exploring some unexplored regions and trying to gather some spell materials, one thing I noticed, I really wasn't finding any of the quick exits in the stash rooms.   I don't know if it was the RNG or something changed, but I found myself doing a lot of backtracking through the buildings. 

Offline Tobias

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So, people are arguing that FoL is now overpowered? I can kinda see that, I used to roll with the inner light enchant in the body slot, then when I discovered the elven boots now have light I started using those so I could put on a defensive enchant. FoL effectively solved that and is an easy quick solution to visibility, and make underwater cave delving much less of a horrific traumatizing experience.

Even if it needs to be nerfed somehow, there needs to be a lighting spell that follows the player. I don't like ball of light because it clutters the landscape and the map, I feel compelled to destroy all manually placed platforms and balls of light before leaving an area, old habit formed from playing morrowind back when save file bloating was a serious issue. Maybe just limit the range of FoL instead of making it fullscreen? Honestly I just like it the way it is.

Offline zebramatt

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I'd be more inclined to leave Flash of Light with an incredibly short (even shorter perhaps) duration but increase its utility through other means. Like, maybe it uncovers the entire minimap, or a large area of it.

Offline Misery

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I'd be more inclined to leave Flash of Light with an incredibly short (even shorter perhaps) duration but increase its utility through other means. Like, maybe it uncovers the entire minimap, or a large area of it.


There's already Light Snake for that.  Or whatever that's called.


To me, Flash is completely useless at 10 seconds.   Dont like recasting, and the game acts really wierd when the spell starts to shut down and the darkness is returning (AKA, really bizarre slowdown and choppiness).   Previously, with the tier system, I simply refused to use the spell until I could get it to tier 3 (and this meant I always *rushed* through the first tier/lieutenant tower, because I get tired of the other lighting methods REALLY fast).


If they have to nerf this spell...... I'd hope to see something decent put in it's place, because other than this, there's no lighting method that ISNT really annoying and tedious.   I'd really rather not have to avoid caves entirely just because pointless nerf (and I haaaaaaaaaaaaaate collecting Moon Lamps, as it takes freaking forever and is boring).   The spell was capable of lasting, what, FIFTY seconds before, if you had it at tier 5?   Nobody ever complained about it during earlier versions.  And really, the complaints dont make sense to me.   It's like having an RPG, right, with an inventory fulla stuff, and saying "inventory management is pointless now that there's an auto-sort button!", and as with that sort of complaint, this one just absolutely baffles me.

Also, again...... Draconites.  They just absolutely IGNORE the entire lighting system.  Flash is not so powerful as to do that, like they can do.

I'd rather just see it left as it now is.  The game isnt about lighting up rooms, never was.  To be honest, I never liked the lighting system to begin with.... probably the ONE part of the game I have issues with.  I'd rather get to the exploring and monster fighting and item collecting and basically every other aspect of it, rather than having to stop and install lightbulbs every few seconds.


At the same time though, I'd suspected this sort of problem was going to show up when some spells lost their... uh.... "tiered"-ness.