AVWW Post-Release 1.002-1.005 "Upgraded Elitism" Released!

[crayo]

Yea, I was going to ask. Did non-boss, non-stationary enemy ranges get nerfed accordingly? I take this to be a no. This seems sort of silly, as it now sets up even more tedious to counter situations that many of the newer players have pointed out. (With bosses, you expect his sort of silliness, and with stationary enemies, well, they are basically turrets, it's not like they can move to where you are in their firing range)

Although these changes seem great, this is such a balance oversight that I will probably just hold on 1.001 for now until this is figured out.

Well, actually, it might be a good idea to try it out. There's a fair chance my perception of the monsters' spell ranges is exactly that: perception. I could be full of it; and, since nobody else has mentioned a similar issue yet I probably am. Still, some of the monsters seem to be able to tag me from off screen (especially in the "perfection" missions). It could be that I'm just having to realize I suck at combat in this game without the range advantage ...

[Martyn van Buren]

With elites acting as special "Overlord defining" monsters that aren't guaranteed to show up all over the place, they could probably be made more powerful. In their previous incarnation they had to be "fair" without a bunch of immunities and whatnot.

The other thread about how to get players to use a greater variety of spells brought up some good ideas, and these elites seem like the perfect thing.  Overlords could have a preference for monsters that come from whichever time zone the overlord castle is in. Maybe give all their elites specific immunities. The player may be able to infer information about the overlord from the elites it has chosen. Say a bunch of elites have either 50% earth or air resistance, that could mean that the overlord is immune to those. Kind of a scouting by example. There are so many great ideas in Ai War that really fit in AVWW.

That would be great. I could see a number of special roles for elites, for instance creep leaders in battlefield missions. There might also be some good challenge areas with only elites once enough have been unlocked.

[Hyfrydle]

All I can say is wow this latest update has really improved things the randomness of the mobs makes each expedition into the wilderness really interesting and the different combos can be challenging with different elemental spells required. With more and more mobs each continent will start to feel really different. Maybe this mechanic could apply to other things in the world.

So far for me I like the new spell range mechanic as it makes combat a little more tactical and at times deadly. No longer can I shoot down the length of a corridor with the monster out of sight.

My fave mob so far is the exploding esper it really packs a punch if you get too close.

Well done guys with one patch you've made massive improvements.

[Terraziel]

I do understand the reasons behind the player range reduction, though it has removed the only reason I actually used projectile speed enchants, but monsters now out range players by a frankly "unfun" amount.

I think in general I would have preferred enemy behaviour to have changed, if the concern was players being able to snipe from long range then the enemies, definitely the bosses should have been made more aggressive and been given ways of dealing with it. Perhaps even put in some enemies with behaviour specifically designed to combat it.

[Terraziel]

My fave mob so far is the exploding esper it really packs a punch if you get too close.

Having started a new world my concern with these is they pack too much of a punch, or at least that the explosion is too long range, i've been in a number of situations indoors where it wasn't possible to avoid the explosion, but then equally situations where the espers hasn't exploded at all.

Edit: For clarity, what bothers me is that the exploding espers create situations where it's impossible to avoid damage without a shield, they create a strange point where leaving them alive will, in theory, make you take damage and killing them will make you take damage.

[x4000]

The enemy ranges are not an oversight and I have had no intention of changing them. Changing mister behavior is impossible as a fix to long-range sniping; large enemies simply cannot go into the small places that you can.

In terms of the ranges being reduced by an unfun amount; that's hard to gauge. I'd be willing to increase the player ranges a bit, later tonight potentially if that's what folks want. By maybe 200px across the board if need be. But my feeling was that having to be closer to enemies will lead to more interesting combat.

In terms of enemy ranges that just means they can harass you from further away, which was always the goal. It doesn't give them any advantage when you are close to them. Their shots almost all move way slower than you do, and you move faster than all enemies still, so it's not like they have all the advantages. You have speed, they have range.

[x4000]

UPDATE: So folks really didn't like the ranges being that short.  Please note that spamming our company inbox with requests for a change like this is not going to do you any favors with convincing us.  However, other folks made reasoned arguments that were convincing.  Since this bothered so many people, 1.005 has been pushed out early -- despite it being the weekend -- to help fix that for them.

[MouldyK]

How long was Miasma Whip before all the changes BTW? Because it seems much shorter than before and that might hassle some people.

Also, Air Slash enchantments used to make the range of weapons like Miasma Whip longer (or at least I thought they did), but now they don't seem to have that effect. Was that a bug or something which was removed?

Also, when people were in my server earlier, I think Miasma Whip did not display for me when they were using it, instead just having the same look as how some other spells had prior to 1.005.

[Penumbra]

Also, Air Slash enchantments used to make the range of weapons like Miasma Whip longer (or at least I thought they did), but now they don't seem to have that effect. Was that a bug or something which was removed?

The main change here was to add fixed ranged on spells, instead of the previous "time to live" mechanic. The old mechanic let "projectile speed" enchants increase the spells distance by traveling farther in the same time. Now, they just reach their fixed distance faster.

[Terraziel]

Changing mister behavior is impossible as a fix to long-range sniping; large enemies simply cannot go into the small places that you can.

For bosses, I was thinking things along the lines of the discussion about charge-up spells, give them an ability specifically designed to counter people out ranging them. Maybe just make the trash enemies in boss rooms spawn near your character.

EDIT:

To comment on the Forest Rage nerf, despite not using it often it strikes me as a bit reactionary, rather it used to have high damage with high mana cost, now it just has high mana cost, it's most direct comparison is Plasma Bolt, which now does better damage for about half the mana cost.

[x4000]

UPDATE: Okay, hopefully the last hotfix for the weekend: 1.006 is out now.  Hotfixes that come like this aren't the normal way we do things around here, just for anyone keeping score.  Sure, we'll do them when they're warranted (as now), but we prefer to prevent them from being warranted in the first place.  The reason for this update is to put in a fix that prevents some excessive error logging that could cause lag on some MP servers.  Also it tweaks the balance of Forest Rage again to hopefully get that so that it's useful but not as overpowered as it previously was.

[LintMan]

Thanks for increasing the spell range.  I think it's at a good range now for most of them.  I'm wondering about Lesser Teleport, though - it seems like it is far shorter range than it used to be.  Was it maybe overlooked, or is this intentional?

[KingIsaacLinksr]

Thanks for increasing the spell range.  I think it's at a good range now for most of them.  I'm wondering about Lesser Teleport, though - it seems like it is far shorter range than it used to be.  Was it maybe overlooked, or is this intentional?

Lesser Teleport has always been fairly small range so its intentional.

King

[LintMan]

Thanks for increasing the spell range.  I think it's at a good range now for most of them.  I'm wondering about Lesser Teleport, though - it seems like it is far shorter range than it used to be.  Was it maybe overlooked, or is this intentional?

Lesser Teleport has always been fairly small range so its intentional.

Not nearly as short as it is now.   It used to be that standing at the bottom of the screen, the teleport shot could reach at least as far as the top of the screen (at 1920x1200) if not a bit further.  Now, it only goes about 1/2 to 2/3 of the screen height.  That's a big difference when you're trying to get over some of the taller wall-like cliffs and such.

[x4000]

Thanks for increasing the spell range.  I think it's at a good range now for most of them.  I'm wondering about Lesser Teleport, though - it seems like it is far shorter range than it used to be.  Was it maybe overlooked, or is this intentional?

Lesser Teleport has always been fairly small range so its intentional.

Not nearly as short as it is now.   It used to be that standing at the bottom of the screen, the teleport shot could reach at least as far as the top of the screen (at 1920x1200) if not a bit further.  Now, it only goes about 1/2 to 2/3 of the screen height.  That's a big difference when you're trying to get over some of the taller wall-like cliffs and such.

Lesser teleport was not changed as part of this cycle of changes at all, so if it's smaller it's been thus for quite some time.