AVWW Post-Release 1.001 "Arrival Of The Elites" Released!

[Terraziel]

Very welcome to feedback on thresholds for adding of elites, though; I had wondered if perhaps 80 wasn't way too low.  Then again, you fight a pretty good mix of enemies (which will continue to be expanding), so killing 80 bats isn't like killing 80 enemies in general -- it might be killing 1600 enemies, if there was a bat you killed for every 19 other enemies you killed (and that seems high, really).

Personally I find most of the Kill X Unlocks pretty low.

Within a region for at least the first two tiers the ratio of any given enemy is 1 in 3, 1 in ?4? at best, starting a new world to test it took me 4 each of skelebot grunts, snipers and dwarfs and 5 ice leapers just getting to my first stash, that adds up pretty quickly.

As a better tested example, If we take the urban crawlers unlock as an example (Kill 60 Lightning Espers) I always do that within tier 1 of the first continent.

I think the elite unlock numbers at the moment risk the elites not only being the ones you spend most of your time fighting, but also coming in early enough to throw off new players, the enemies will actually be upgrading before you have the ability to deal with them, either through character upgrades or player skill increase.

I have to say I would prefer that the elites were a random chance alteration to the normal enemies, so a room spawns with bats, and then there is an individually determined X percent chance that they get upgraded to elites. X could then be changed by continent, tier and difficulty.

[x4000]

In terms of the bat behavior, it's literally identical except in terms of they also have a ranged spell that gets fired at you when they are in range.  I'm running out of ways to say that.

In terms of the kill X unlocks being low... like I said, I'm definitely willing to evaluate that.  I'm not remotely convinced that the current numbers are right, and I don't recall claiming such (actually I think we asked for feedback on it, but folks haven't really said much; or possibly I forgot to ask for feedback last night and that's why, as it was pretty late).

Anyway, regarding elites only having a smaller chance to seed rather than being a lightswitch thing, I could agree with that also.  All I'm really going for with elites is a phase-out of enemies that players find boring for identical replacements with added stats/abilities/whatever to keep them interesting.  That's their entire purpose, full stop.  How best to achieve that in the details is certainly something worth discussing beyond our initial first stab at it.

Going along with this, I feel that elites need to be a one-way door.  As you get further into the game by playing longer, and you kill a lot more of enemy X, you start getting more and more interesting versions of that enemy to keep you going.  And you get those new versions more of the time, as the case might be.  I'm not saying that there should only ever be 80 bats in the game for sure, but past a certain point the originals need to disappear as being just too easy.  Prior to that having an increasing mix of them does make good sense, though.

[Chomper]

I gotta say, as I haven't been involved in post-release Arcen before, I am impressed. I'm really digging the concept of elite mobs, very cool idea that fits with the general concept of progression. The more features that sync well with each other the better, and this one very much adds to the internal logic of the game (everything getting bigger and badder).

I'm really stoked to see what this game becomes as I already love it, if y'all make it to 5.000 as you have with AI War that'd be crazy. The idea that this might only be the foundation for what the game might become is really exciting to me, as I love to be able to spend a good chunk of time on one game without feeling burnt out. It's always a bummer when a game you like turns out to be a one-trick pony.

Kudos guys.

[Chomper]

And I have to say I agree with Wanderer. The more new players to grow and maintain the playerbase the better. I'd rather have a population that warrants Arcen's continued support, than a stagnant community of elite players. Not that hardcore fans aren't great, it just works out for everybody if people have a chance to get into the game before the intensity is shoved in their faces.

[Kregoth]

Hmm Chris how about adding it to the combat difficultly slider? it would adjust how many you need before the elite version phases out the old.

So if you increase combat difficulty you would reduce the number needed for elites to show, and lower makes the numbers higher.

[Hearteater]

Are elites per-continent, or per-world?  It seems if they are per-world, that old worlds will eventually be very newbie-unfriendly because all the mob-types will be far down the elite chain.

[steavejohn1994]

And I have to say I agree with Wanderer. The more new players to grow and maintain the playerbase the better. I'd rather have a population that warrants Arcen's continued support, than a stagnant community of elite players. Not that hardcore fans aren't great, it just works out for everybody if people have a chance to get into the game before the intensity is shoved in their faces.

[Wanderer]

A request on the new 'reflection' mechanism in the anachronism missions... please tone down the damage reflected to 1/10th to 1/20th.  I just managed to suicide in under a half a second with 300 hp and 650 DPS.  Short form: THWACK DEAD WHAT?!  ... ... oh.  Crap.  Opened up a Mantis issue as well, thank you.

[Hunam]

I also dont like how elites completely phase out regular bats and would prefer that the simply spawn in addition to the regular enemies. For me it doesn't matter if sonic bats and bats are similar. I'm on my iPhone so I can't articulate very well but the IDEA of a world without plain regular bats or eagles seems sad   I dont know I just feel tha this downplays the world of environ and it's creatures...

[x4000]

Cheers folks -- this next release is going to majorly rejigger elites.  I hear what you're saying.  The details on the new system aren't completely worked out yet, but we've been listening to all the various feedback on them and are trying to work out something that will address all the concerns at once.  And of course I'm sure the new thing will need some tuning once it's out anyhow, but it should be a big step in the right direction anyhow.

[Penumbra]

I also dont like how elites completely phase out regular bats and would prefer that the simply spawn in addition to the regular enemies. For me it doesn't matter if sonic bats and bats are similar. I'm on my iPhone so I can't articulate very well but the IDEA of a world without plain regular bats or eagles seems sad   I dont know I just feel tha this downplays the world of environ and it's creatures...

I think this is a matter of spin. If Chris had said:

    Bats can now attack from range with a sonic blast.
        To be fair to new players, the first 80 bats killed won't exhibit this behavior.

People's reactions would be different. These are the same bats!

As for an Environ without "normal" bats, almost every game phases out the early creatures. In Symphony of the Night, people didn't complain when all the monsters later on we're pallet swapped creatures from the beginning. There they had new names and still fully replaced their old brethren. I don't think SotN's bats lasted more than a few levels (excepting for a few choice moments  )

Here, we have the pallets swaps with fire and ice bats. But, we get to keep regular bats too! Those bats just have a few additions to make them not be boring against the new ones.

If, in Final Fantasy, they would throw in the monsters from the first continent In at the end, whithout an upgrade in levels it would be silly. Maybe the bats have been picking up enchants along with you?

[Ontogenesis]

I've really enjoyed the new beta update so far. I'll add that I like the idea of the enemies being replaced but I see where everyone is coming from. Variety is definately the way forward, I suppose by keeping all versions of a monster then you get more variety for free, so to speak. I imagine the Perfectionist missions are a pony now though...

Haven't tried the new anachronism mission yet, but I never had any problems with the old one....

[zebramatt]

I also dont like how elites completely phase out regular bats and would prefer that the simply spawn in addition to the regular enemies. For me it doesn't matter if sonic bats and bats are similar. I'm on my iPhone so I can't articulate very well but the IDEA of a world without plain regular bats or eagles seems sad   I dont know I just feel tha this downplays the world of environ and it's creatures...

I think this is a matter of spin. If Chris had said:

    Bats can now attack from range with a sonic blast.
        To be fair to new players, the first 80 bats killed won't exhibit this behavior.

People's reactions would be different. These are the same bats!

As for an Environ without "normal" bats, almost every game phases out the early creatures. In Symphony of the Night, people didn't complain when all the monsters later on we're pallet swapped creatures from the beginning. There they had new names and still fully replaced their old brethren. I don't think SotN's bats lasted more than a few levels (excepting for a few choice moments  )

Here, we have the pallets swaps with fire and ice bats. But, we get to keep regular bats too! Those bats just have a few additions to make them not be boring against the new ones.

If, in Final Fantasy, they would throw in the monsters from the first continent In at the end, whithout an upgrade in levels it would be silly. Maybe the bats have been picking up enchants along with you?

You, sir, have hit the preverbial nail on the head!

Nonetheless I'm intrigued with the changes to come.

[Bluddy]

I think this is a matter of spin. If Chris had said:

    Bats can now attack from range with a sonic blast.
        To be fair to new players, the first 80 bats killed won't exhibit this behavior.

People's reactions would be different. These are the same bats!

As for an Environ without "normal" bats, almost every game phases out the early creatures. In Symphony of the Night, people didn't complain when all the monsters later on we're pallet swapped creatures from the beginning. There they had new names and still fully replaced their old brethren. I don't think SotN's bats lasted more than a few levels (excepting for a few choice moments  )

Here, we have the pallets swaps with fire and ice bats. But, we get to keep regular bats too! Those bats just have a few additions to make them not be boring against the new ones.

If, in Final Fantasy, they would throw in the monsters from the first continent In at the end, whithout an upgrade in levels it would be silly. Maybe the bats have been picking up enchants along with you?

I disagree. I think there is value in preserving an enemy that can only attack with melee attacks but weaves and bobs as it approaches you. However, I think this really has a lot to do with the controls divide. If you play with a mouse, hitting bats is effortless because you don't really need to aim -- you just click on them a couple of times. If you play with the keyboard or gamepad, the flying pattern of bats makes them a real nuisance, especially when they sneak up on you, and you often need something other than your default long range attack to get rid of them.

[tigersfan]

Ok, Chris, Keith, and I had a skype chat this morning and we figured out what we're going to do. And personally, I love this idea.

First, we're getting rid of unlocks for elite enemies. Gone.

Then, as CP goes up, there becomes an increasing chance of one of the elite enemies coming into play. They will never completely replace their lower down counter-part though. So, while the game might introduce Eagle Divers, there will still be regular eagles too. What enemies are introduced and the order they are introduced will be random.

Also, the randomization process gets reset each continent. So, you might see Skelebot Kneecappers in the first continent. In the second one, they might not be there, while the second one might have Repulsive Dust Storms instead that weren't on the first. What this means is that as we add more enemies and more elite enemies, each continent will be more and more unique from other continents in that world.