Author Topic: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!  (Read 4209 times)

Offline x4000

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Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2012/03/avww-beta-0902-kid-gloves-are.html

This one, once again, is primarily focused on difficulty.  To be more specific, the lack of spread of combat difficulties in the recent versions.  This game has always been designed to cater to a diverse crowd in terms of skill level, but in recent version we had a lot of combat difficulties suited for low-skill players, and too few ones suited for high-skill players.

As such, the difficulties have been shifted around rather substantially, and so you might find that you are now playing on a difficulty level that is murderously too hard all of a sudden.  Sorry about that, if you get caught in the crossfire in that way, but remember that you can always return to your settlement at any time and tweak the difficulty to be just what you want.

Really the only thing that has changed in regards to difficulty has been monster health -- on higher difficulties, monsters simply had too little of it.  It's fine to one-shot monsters on a low difficulty, but on a higher difficulty there needs to be time for you and the monster to get some good shots off at each other.  You need time to be forced to dodge or block, and to think about the various attacks as the monster launches them, and that doesn't happen if you zap the monster in one burst as soon as he's on the screen.

We've also made a large number of other tweaks and bugfixes in this version, and there's a fairly rare new kind of item that you can find in lava stash rooms: advanced heatsuits.  Some of the mechanics of fighting in windstorms have also been changed up a bit, so that spells no longer get slowed when fired upwind, but get sped up even more when fired downwind.  The effect can be pretty dramatic in terms of spiking the difficulty, but at the same time not making it impossible for certain spells to damage the other side when they are firing against the wind.

Lastly, if you found yourself getting insta-killed by monsters in the last few weeks while using storm dash, that was due to some calculation errors that have now been fixed.  Along with some other fixes to stats modifiers in general, actually, and some buffs to using upgrade stones on stats other than health.

More to come soon.  Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the in-game updater itself, if you already have 0.500 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have 0.500 or later, you can download that here.
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Offline Terraziel

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 07:07:16 pm »
...and I have a complaint already, though generally battles are feeling much better, indeed I had the first fight against shadow bats in ages that i might consider a "boss fight", you've also buffed the health of all the resource deposits, which has made mining them a bit a of a chore.

Offline Panopticon

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 07:54:27 pm »
I'm enjoying the stiffer combat. I felt like I needed to actually check boss weaknesses all of a sudden.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 08:39:49 pm »
Complaining post ahead. I already dislike bullet sponge enemies. Before this patch I felt that the clockwork probes or the fairy bosses were already far too damage absorbent. Now this has made it ridiculous. I tried it for a bit and realized that everything absorbing this much damage was boring me, so I switched to default difficult from where I had been on +1 difficulty. Tried a bit more. It still feels like a lot, but I guess I can live with it. Now, this is just the worst luck, but I went into a cave and the first boss was a flock of fairies and every monster spawner in the cave is spawning probes. On default difficulty, they do so little damage that I can basically just stand there and shoot without dodging and survive for several minutes.

Side note, the fairies already annoyed me because they have a lot of HP, they seem to react drastically to knockback so you can never sit and wail on them for a while (except with piercing spells, but all of those have been turned into slow shots) as any attack launches them across the room or into a high corner. All you can do is chase them around until you finally manage to corner one where your shots won't send it sailing off towards the horizon. And even then, they're constantly spawning little fairies at you, so again you need mostly piercing spells to even got a shot through to them. And then when you finally get that one fairy done, hey congrats there's four more of the little buggers to deal with! But that is a tangent, and not exactly the point here.

I feel like now I've got the choice of lower difficulty where massive health drops undermine any point of dodging, or higher difficulty where there's a little risk to taking damage but everything will absorb massive amounts of damage in return. I'm trying to figure out how to adjust my play style to have fun with this change, and I'm having a hard time.

Edit: Well I can't stand playing on lower difficulty. It's just so pointless when you can soak damage from four enemies and refill your health bar with the orbs from one kill. I've cranked it back up a bit, and now I'm finding that I'm much more likely to completely ignore monsters or shield and run through them now instead of attacking anything.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2012, 09:16:36 pm by BobTheJanitor »

Offline kof91

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2012, 02:32:27 am »
Just updated and finally my civ reach tier 2. I understand that the difficulty has been bump up but does it include trees and boxes? Now I need 2 hit to clear the trees and boxes.  :o Is this an intended difficulty upgrade?
Also the enemies that bump off after being hit is kinda annoying. It is easier to avoid their projectile and walk away than the effort to hit them.

On the plus side the mission bosses poses more challenge now, nice to need to jump and avoid being hit. Before this patch, I can practically stand my ground taking all the hit with the mission boss. On normal difficulties I think bosses can shoot more projectile or even shoot with a pattern plus shots directed at the player ala "Shmups" styled will be fun for platformer probably not for difficulties lower than normal. This will also make the bosses more variation. I am not too sure if this had been in the game yet. I just started playing it, there is still a long way for me to go.

Offline zebramatt

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2012, 03:30:14 am »
I'm assuming this one is just a bug:

Background objects have too much health.

And these two are just a case of rebalancing enemies:

Clockwork probes rebalance; and

Fairy boss rebalance.

Offline Terraziel

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2012, 06:06:15 am »
I think Zebramatt is on the better path here, we need to be rebalancing the monsters not the difficulty settings, because I like the higher health, but I was going to complain about fairies as well.

With the increased health resistances have definitely become more important, for normal monsters as well as bosses, perhaps if it is assured that all the high health enemy types have a weakness (which most do already) then the bullet sponge feel will be mitigated a bit.

As a further point, I think avoiding enemies should be an entirely valid, if not encouraged, game decision, previously you could kill enemies so quickly that you just killed them because they were there. Now you should only really be dealing with things that are a threat to you (ie, do i spend the time to kill icicle leapers? no because most of the time i can just avoid them)

Offline x4000

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2012, 10:01:53 am »
Some serious bugs in this one, as have been noted -- see changes already put in release notes for a release later this morning.

Also, addressing Bob specifically, I will not claim the balance is perfect.  However, I do think that the general scaling of the difficulty is about right.  Like zebramatt and Terraziel have said, I think what needs to be done is looking at enemies on a case-by-case basis.  Once the bugs are fixed from this version, and with the general scaling of things not jumping around anymore (spells, difficulty multipliers, etc), we can finally nail down the desired balance on enemies of that nature.

That said, having enemies be something that you have to hit more than once or twice is the general goal of mine.  Needing to sink 10 shots into a stupid skelebot is of course maddening... but then again, if you are using same-tier spells and no enchants I'm not even sure that's a bad thing.  It's a big scary world, and it encourages you to quickly get a higher-tier spell and enchant yourself well, so that you can deal with monsters in a relatively summary fashion without it still being one-shot headshots.

Broadly speaking, that's what I personally am aiming for at the moment, but I know it doesn't match that quite yet across the board.  Let's get there. :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2012, 10:08:58 am »
As a further point, I think avoiding enemies should be an entirely valid, if not encouraged, game decision, previously you could kill enemies so quickly that you just killed them because they were there. Now you should only really be dealing with things that are a threat to you (ie, do i spend the time to kill icicle leapers? no because most of the time i can just avoid them)

Oh, to respond to that as well -- yes, I completely agree.  In Mario, for instance, you don't try to kill every Goomba.  Metroid, every last everything isn't slaughtered.  Generally speaking in these sorts of games, you don't kill every monster that gets just in your general vicinity.  That really gives a sense of too much power, I think.

This is supposed to be a dangerous world, and you are the underdog.  Sometimes you can get a temporary advantage over some of the monsters in the world, but that's not something that will last forever, and it's still not going to make you the God-King Warrior of the continent.  ;D
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2012, 10:10:43 am »
If you're hitting skelebots in the knee with same-tier forest rage and no enchants... even that probably shouldn't be 10 shots, but 8-9 wouldn't be out of keeping.  Hitting them in the head with same-tier ball lightning and some +damage (particularly if +yellow-damage) enchants, that's probably appropriate to be in the 2-shot range, potentially one-shot if it's a tier+1.
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Offline x4000

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2012, 10:14:03 am »
That sounds about right to me, on an average or above-average difficulty.  On a much higher difficulty, multiply those numbers by 3-4; you are seriously outgunned, there.  I think we're in the same general ballpark of where we want this to go, but right now we've been changing too many things at once:

1. Tier-related buffs
2. Various bugs
3. Enchant buffs
4. Difficulty-related buffs
5. Changes to the underlying stats themselves, on both the monster and player side.

I think we're now getting down to where we just need to get the monster stats right, and then we're set.
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Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2012, 10:52:02 am »
I think that for me the balance doesn't feel quite right yet. I'd rather have higher difficulties doing higher damage to me, not making the enemies more bullet spongy. And I think the default health return per kill is still too high on normal difficulty. But maybe I'm in the minority here, I don't know. In general I think running through scores of low health enemies that can still do dangerous damage if I don't dodge their shots or kill them quickly is more fun than the alternative. Although I guess it's hard to balance the enemies to do challenging damage with such a wide sliding scale of player health. And short of adding in another set of difficulty sliders for monster health and player health, which would be silly, I don't see any way to get exactly what I want out of the game as it is. But things continue to change so I'm not too worried about it.

Although I really do think faeries are ridiculously buff for little balls of light. And clockwork probes should have their spawning speed halved or something, because fighting a lot of those is just endless.

Offline x4000

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2012, 11:07:09 am »
I think that for me the balance doesn't feel quite right yet.

Isn't that what we all just said, too? ;)

I'd rather have higher difficulties doing higher damage to me, not making the enemies more bullet spongy.

You can't have one without the other.  It has to be a mix of both.  At a higher difficulty, the enemies have to take more damage so that you have to take more risks in order to actually deal that damage to them.  If there are just two volleys back and forth, and you manage to dodge both times before killing the enemy, big whoop.  Perhaps you just got lucky, perhaps you actually are more skilled.  If you can do that ten times in a row, that says something completely else -- you're actually consistently good, not just good in short bursts.  Higher difficulty levels in any game should require consistently good play.

And I think the default health return per kill is still too high on normal difficulty.

It could be, but bear in mind that normal difficulty level is supposed to be pretty tame.  The last thing I want is for players to come into this game and find it way too hard right from the start.  If you like Super Meat Boy or similar, then this difficulty is not for you, and you opinion does not count! ;)  My ideal scenario for this game is:

1. Player hears about game, possibly that it can be really hard if you want it to.
2. Player starts game, possibly leaving it on regular difficulty, and says "oh, this isn't so bad after all."
3. A player wanting a really stiff challenge will then look at the difficulty settings again, and crank it up.

I know that there is debate on point #3, but my experience with AI War has shown that to be true.  Whereas, more middle-of-the-road players who are getting creamed will not turn the difficulty down as easily.  It feels like a cheat to them.  Therefore, if this game isn't going languish as a niche title, the default difficulty has to be pretty darn forgiving.  If it gets a sub-reputation as having awesome hardcore options, then great, but generally that's something only hardcore players tend to be interested in... and they tend to be the ones most likely to talk to other players, visit forums, experiment around with settings, etc.

But maybe I'm in the minority here, I don't know. In general I think running through scores of low health enemies that can still do dangerous damage if I don't dodge their shots or kill them quickly is more fun than the alternative. Although I guess it's hard to balance the enemies to do challenging damage with such a wide sliding scale of player health. And short of adding in another set of difficulty sliders for monster health and player health, which would be silly, I don't see any way to get exactly what I want out of the game as it is. But things continue to change so I'm not too worried about it.

What I want to make very clear on this point is: there is absolutely no reason we cannot do both, even considering the current difficulty scale.  If a monster has super low health in general, but does amazing damage (or even average difficulty on lower levels), then the multiplied health will still be super low but their attacks will still be devastating.  That's what I mean about the monster balance itself needing work, rather than whatever else.  Want more low-health high-attack monster areas?  Great!  That's a feature, not an overall design philosophy, when it comes to this game, though.

In general I'm currently balancing down some of the enemy healths to do just this, because some enemies are indeed now too buff.  I'm still in progress, but this is what I have so far for the next version:

* After cooking up a quick "how many hits does it take to kill an enemy at each difficulty, with base damage at equal tier and tier +1" calculator, the following changes have been made to enemy health balance:
** Master Hero difficulty multiplier dropped from 5 to 4.5.
** The Chosen One difficulty dropped from 8 to 6.
** Lightning Esper and Water Esper base health dropped from 3000 to 2000.
** Desert burrower base health dropped from 5000 to 1500.
** Icicle leaper base health dropped from 2500 to 750.
** Hanging trap base health dropped from 8000 to 3000.
** Skelebot dwarf base health dropped from 2000 to 1000.
** Green Fairy base health dropped from 10,000 to 3000.
** Red Fairy base health dropped from 15,000 to 5000.
** Red and Red/Yellow slime base healths both dropped from 2500 to 1500.
** Skelebot overlord base health dropped from 230,000 to 160,000.


As you can see, in general the health of most monsters is still way higher than a version ago, and that's simply just not going to change -- my stance being that you need to demonstrate consistency at a higher difficulty level, as noted, which means trading several shots rather than one-shotting them and dodging their single attack against you.  But there's also a much wider variance overall being introduced here, and that's something I want to continue doing.

Although I really do think faeries are ridiculously buff for little balls of light. And clockwork probes should have their spawning speed halved or something, because fighting a lot of those is just endless.

Note those were already on zebramatt's list above. :)  But yeah, I've not gotten to the clockworks in my rebalance list above (stopped to respond to you), but the fairies are already much better.  The ludicrousness of their toughness versus size is intended, by the way, mostly for the surprise factor and how contrary that is to other games where fairies help you. :)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2012, 11:11:28 am »
Quote from: x4000
and how contrary that is to other games where fairies help you. :)
Now we just need a white-element version of them that lobs scimitars at you :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.902 "The Kid Gloves Are Officially Off" Released!
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 11:13:01 am »
I totally don't get that reference, but sounds like fun. :)
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