AVWW Beta 0.584 "Supply Train Map " Released!

[x4000]

And in terms of this being a substantial weakness to the game: I think that a lot of classic RPGs (my favorites, even, including FF6) included about the same number of character models that we already have.  In the same ballpark, anyhow, in a lot of cases.

Is it fair to compare those games to AVWW? They're not procedurally generated. Eventually the player will finish them and move on to the next game. They're not expected to keep going indefinitely.

I think it's quite fair -- in FF6, for instance, there are about 8 different townsperson graphics for the entire world, even in the World of Ruin.  The game asks us to believe that every one of those townspeople is a distinct individual.  Even in one bar, you have three of the same sprite sitting there all together, and they are all clearly different people who talk not only to you, but to each other.  This is just... how games work, you know?

Not saying I don't want to add more characters to play with and meet, but that is why it's not a higher priority for me at this point.

[TechSY730]

I think it's quite fair -- in FF6, for instance, there are about 8 different townsperson graphics for the entire world, even in the World of Ruin.  The game asks us to believe that every one of those townspeople is a distinct individual.  Even in one bar, you have three of the same sprite sitting there all together, and they are all clearly different people who talk not only to you, but to each other.  This is just... how games work, you know?

Not saying I don't want to add more characters to play with and meet, but that is why it's not a higher priority for me at this point.

Queue joke that every game related comic has done, where a generic NPC comments that they almost feel like a clone of some other generic NPC, or someone else comments on that. Heck, even some of the less serious RPGs have done that joke in game. Heck, even some of the less serious non-RPGs that reuse models/sprites for NPCs have done that joke in game.

[BobTheJanitor]

I think the more realistic art style may bite you in the backside on that one. People accept generic town NPC 1-8 because they are little sprite pixel graphics that could represent a whole lot of people that all look similar. But people complained in Oblivion, for example, when two NPCs who had the same voice actor met and had a conversation, because it just sounded like a guy talking to himself.

If you've ever read the book Understanding Comics (which is a brilliant book, by the way) it has a whole section about how making the art style more realistic makes it less and less representational of everyone, and more and more representational of only one person. Here's the pertinent panel (thanks google images): http://ignorethecode.net/upload/240/faces_1.png

Two stick men side by side could easily be two different people. Two hyper-realistic guys with the same clothes and hair and facial structure and skin color side by side are blatantly the same character reused. I don't know where I was going with this, but it's an interesting topic.

[x4000]

Yes, this is a valid point -- but then again, what about every FPS game ever made in the last 10 years?  Half Life 2 had I think 5 NPC models, and sometimes you'd have two of the same one (same voices, even) coming with you at the same time near the end of that game.  Other times, "the black medic-looking guy" would die, and then I'd round a corner and there would be another copy of him ready to help again.  He was my favorite ally, so he stuck out to me in particular.

Jarring?  A bit.  It's certainly something I remember.  But it comes down to still That's Just How Games Work.  Hence you get "arrow in the knee" and stuff in voice-acted RPGs like Skyrim.  You could argue that the decision to include voice acting for minor NPCs bit them in the rear there.  But does that mean they shouldn't have done it, or should have delayed the game to add more dialogue for town guards?  I think not, personally, though opinions might vary.

That's just how games are, in a finite world; they're representations of reality at varying degrees of abstractness.

[Terraziel]

Queue joke that every game related comic has done, where a generic NPC comments that they almost feel like a clone of some other generic NPC, or someone else comments on that. Heck, even some of the less serious RPGs have done that joke in game. Heck, even some of the less serious non-RPGs that reuse models/sprites for NPCs have done that joke in game.

save it for Queen Dopplepopolis?

I'd say that the oblivion comparison is probably unwarranted, as it was the voice acting that people complained about, gamers fully expect models to be the same simply because of the effort involved in making everyone individuals.

Further, I tend not to look at my character anyway, which is an odd thing to say i suppose, but I mean I would rather have extra effort put towards say giving enemies proper death animations, than varying the NPCs, as I see a lot of enemies and very few NPCs

[x4000]

See, and proper death animations for enemies are likely never coming, either -- that is so utterly boring to me it makes me want to fall asleep.  Enemies poof out of existence when they die, and that's that.  I'm not trying to make some sort of epic high-fidelity AAA graphics title.  If I try to compete there, I have no hope.  I could spend twice as much time trying to get enemy death animations (which would cause longer load times and which people would still complain about) as I could in adding actual new gameplay that make the game more fun.

Graphics that make the game more interesting to explore, and are actually within our skillset: check, I'm all over that.
New mechanics that actually make the game have more lasting fun: check check check, that's totally what we're about.

[Terraziel]

See, and proper death animations for enemies are likely never coming, either -- that is so utterly boring to me it makes me want to fall asleep.  Enemies poof out of existence when they die, and that's that.  I'm not trying to make some sort of epic high-fidelity AAA graphics title.  If I try to compete there, I have no hope.  I could spend twice as much time trying to get enemy death animations (which would cause longer load times and which people would still complain about) as I could in adding actual new gameplay that make the game more fun.

Graphics that make the game more interesting to explore, and are actually within our skillset: check, I'm all over that.
New mechanics that actually make the game have more lasting fun: check check check, that's totally what we're about.

Oh, lets be clear, there was a reason I hadn't put death animations in mantis, because clearly they are fully in the realm of "when we have nothing better to do" additions,  If it puts it in perspective I only even noticed you didn't have any because i started playing Castlevania Symphony of the Night again recently, and that's not a standard you should be held to.

[x4000]

I gotcha -- and I appreciate the clarification.

[KDR_11k]

Bosses could probably use a bigger and lengthier explosion (fireworks as a reward for winning a tough fight) but overall death animations probably would just get repetitive unless they're something like total gibbing which would also be silly (many old games simply had the enemy get bumped off the screen...). Maybe make the poof as big as the enemy that dies and have it appear in the center of mass instead of below the feet.

I have to say I'm still not liking the name of the game, "A Valley Without Wind" just doesn't sound like adventure to me (any random location name would work better but AVWW just sounds like something poetic, a name for some boring artsy game which is the total opposite of what Arcen makes). Especially since I don't perceive the wind as a major issue and if it's about the quest then the game should probably be called A Continent Without Overlords... One aspect of the game is that continents rise from the sea (and theoretically sink again if you don't save them) so the world is basically in flux, maybe that would be more interesting to represent in a name.

Of course it's too late to change it now but I'd just like to put this down here.

[x4000]

Hahahahahaha -- that's the first complaint about the name of the game I've heard so far, to my recollection.  It's been, bar none, the most lauded game name we've ever had.  The press absolutely are eating it up, for one.  Tastes vary, but if there's one thing that has so far been universally acclaimed about the game, it's been the name.  So now there goes the very last thing that everyone could agree on.  So it goes!

[TechSY730]

Bosses could probably use a bigger and lengthier explosion (fireworks as a reward for winning a tough fight) but overall death animations probably would just get repetitive unless they're something like total gibbing which would also be silly (many old games simply had the enemy get bumped off the screen...). Maybe make the poof as big as the enemy that dies and have it appear in the center of mass instead of below the feet.

I would agree on that slight proposed change to death animations for normal enemies.
A more intense death animation for bosses also would be nice, but not as needed.

I have to say I'm still not liking the name of the game, "A Valley Without Wind" just doesn't sound like adventure to me (any random location name would work better but AVWW just sounds like something poetic, a name for some boring artsy game which is the total opposite of what Arcen makes). Especially since I don't perceive the wind as a major issue and if it's about the quest then the game should probably be called A Continent Without Overlords... One aspect of the game is that continents rise from the sea (and theoretically sink again if you don't save them) so the world is basically in flux, maybe that would be more interesting to represent in a name.

Of course it's too late to change it now but I'd just like to put this down here.

I always got the feeling that the devs want to make wind or the absence of wind more of a factor on the game. But I have had that hope for quite some time (ever since the first public beta, actually) and little progress has been made on that front. Yes, wind is now more important, and dealing with it (like wind shelter missions) has become more of an explicit thing, but still doesn't feel important enough to deserve a mention in the title.
Again, not trying to say I don't think you guys are making a great game, but rather expressing concern over a major issue, the title of the game.

EDIT: Ninja'd, looks like I'm not the only one who has mentioned concerns over the title.
Well, at least the title has something to do with the game, unlike, say, Sweet Cuppin' Cakes

[x4000]

By the by -- the wind is the bigger overall problem (thematically speaking at the moment, but directly speaking, later) than the overlords.  And actually, the wind is the source of most monsters and the overlords themselves, and all sorts of other things that are bad.  If there's something wrong with the world, or dangerous, then probably the wind was involved.   That's only about 75% true, but that's pretty good.

EDIT: And all of this sort of information is stuff you'll have to piece together through the mysteries we're going to be introducing through beta phase 3.  Figuring out what the title means, and what all is going on with the world, is essentially a sort of series of side quests of things you can pick up.  The writing for a lot of that is coming along, but none of it is integrated into the game yet.

[Dizzard]

I disagree on the name.

I think "A Valley Without Wind" is a brilliant name for the game.

I'd be really really unhappy if it was changed.

[Terraziel]

Personally "A Valley Without Wind"  as a title reminds me of Nausicaa , which is no bad thing.

[x4000]

Personally "A Valley Without Wind"  as a title reminds me of Nausicaa , which is no bad thing.

Oh, it was definitely inspired by that, actually.  The armored golems in AI War were inspired by Ohms, too, if you're curious.