Author Topic: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!  (Read 9410 times)

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2012, 02:44:23 pm »
Haha, brilliant!  :D

On a related note, you know what would be cool? If abandoning a character generated a new gravestone in the spot you abandoned them saying, "After being abandoned by his/her glyph, x slowly starved to death / lost the will to live / was mauled by wild animals / etc."

 ;)

Offline KDR_11k

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2012, 04:06:23 pm »
Death is supposed to be the result of a string of failures, not something instant. Getting stuck is practically instant death and thus conflicts with a design objective.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2012, 04:43:03 pm »
Death is supposed to be the result of a string of failures, not something instant. Getting stuck is practically instant death and thus conflicts with a design objective.

Now here is a tricky design question.
We want to make failures be a result of a string of failures, and "getting trapped" by something simple goes against that.
But at the same time, we don't want to trivialize pits and platforms by having some sort of "fall prevention" or something.

The way this is dealt with in "conventional" games is to ensure that there is always a path back out to (or more weakly, having a method to get back to) the "main area" that does not need any outside tools, just in case the worst happens. Sadly, this guarantee of "always having a path to the overworld" would be difficult to ensure in a generated world.

Having a pit that if you fall into without platforms, you cannot go deeper into the cave/dungeon/building/whatever seems fair and reasonable. Having a pit that if you fall into without platforms, you cannot go back to the main area or the overworld does not seem fair or reasonable.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 05:36:02 pm by techsy730 »

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2012, 05:22:47 pm »
Sounds like a problem that the original warp scroll/potion system would have fixed. Although I can't think of a time that I've been without double jump/tons of bat scrolls/tons and tons and tons of wooden platforms. But then I'm playing on an old world. Is that situation much more likely to come up in a new world? I can't even think of any pits that I've fallen in that I couldn't get out of with normal jumping in most cases.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2012, 05:37:19 pm »
Sounds like a problem that the original warp scroll/potion system would have fixed. Although I can't think of a time that I've been without double jump/tons of bat scrolls/tons and tons and tons of wooden platforms. But then I'm playing on an old world. Is that situation much more likely to come up in a new world? I can't even think of any pits that I've fallen in that I couldn't get out of with normal jumping in most cases.

Yea, the "pit problem" is not all that big a deal past the early game, because how often you "stumble over" platform drops when wandering around. Still, it is something that needs, at the very least, consideration.

EDIT: Oh and for the old warp potion system, that's not really a true solution, as it is an outside tool. What if you are out of warp potions and platforms? Same problem.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 05:41:44 pm by techsy730 »

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2012, 05:39:57 pm »
Yeah, this has never happened to me, but I am playing an old world too and have ride the lightning.  Is this really a common way to get stuck?  It doesn't bug me much as an edge case, but if it's happening regularly I could see getting pretty annoyed.

One fix could be an expensive default spell that can synthesize a single platform out of nothing.  Supposing it cost half your mana, I don't think you'd ever use it in normal play but it would let you escape from those cases.  It should go straight onto the map rather than into your inventory, to save OCD players from sitting around and using it to build up reserves.

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2012, 05:45:23 pm »
EDIT: Oh and for the old warp potion system, that's not really a true solution, as it is an outside tool. What if you are out of warp potions and platforms? Same problem.

I don't think I ever ran out, but if I had ever gotten low I would have kept one potion for emergencies, and used that to go back to the stone for more. I would feel like that was fair. If it gives me potions every time, I would take that as a signal that I might need to use one in an emergency and failing to restock would be my fault.

I still like the long cooldown wow-esque hearthstone spell which would solve every stuck issue in one fell swoop. (and one swell foop)

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2012, 06:13:55 pm »
Perhaps the series of errors here is leaving home without sufficient platforms, not having double jump and/or ride the lightning... and then not watching your step!  ;)

Offline tigersfan

  • Arcen Games Contractor
  • Arcen Staff
  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,599
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2012, 07:27:55 pm »
Perhaps the series of errors here is leaving home without sufficient platforms, not having double jump and/or ride the lightning... and then not watching your step!  ;)

I agree. Especially considering that there is a coffer of platforms in the settlement, so if you ever run low, you can get more there.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #54 on: February 22, 2012, 03:23:39 pm »
For some reason, the forums stopped notifying me about replies here.  Gah!

Perhaps the series of errors here is leaving home without sufficient platforms, not having double jump and/or ride the lightning... and then not watching your step!  ;)

I agree. Especially considering that there is a coffer of platforms in the settlement, so if you ever run low, you can get more there.

Exactly.  By the same token, there are bosses that will one-hit kill you if you approach them unprepared.  Don't have an upgraded character, don't have good spells and/or enchants to deal with them, etc?  That's your string of mistakes right there.

What I mean about not having twitch-type mistakes be the cause of death is this: in Super Meat Boy, for instance, there is no way to prepare.  You run and jump past spinning blades that kill you if you touch them.  Therefore, if you slip up even slightly, you just have to do it again, and there's no way you can "prepare" to make it easier.  You just have to get better at the game, that's all there is to it.  And that works really well for SMB, but that's not what AVWW is about.

By the same token, the old warp system was really game-breakingly horrible for a lot of reasons, because it made certain failure states too easy to avoid.  Went out unprepared?  No worries, as long as you have a warp potion!  Thus "being prepared" consisted entirely of: 1) having warp potions, and 2) having enough health that things wouldn't kill you before you could pop a warp potion.  That really wasn't what I was going for at all. ;)

Hopefully that makes more sense.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!