AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!

[freeformschooler]

Is there any point to defeating random bosses in the boss rooms in regular buildings or is some kind of reward planned for those?

EDIT: Or have those rooms been replaced with secret mission rooms? Since the update I haven't seen any, though it could be chance.

[Jalen Wanderer]

Have I missed this is the patch notes do the monster spawners in boss rooms disappear once the boss is destroyed?

Yeah, I noticed that too... not only that, but monster spawners seem to no longer give you health if you destroy them (that is, if you destroy them before you kill the boss and they disappear on their own).

[keith.lamothe]

The spawners disappearing is probably related to the work we did on the rescue-npc mission where the spawners are in fact there the whole time but are hidden until you actually start leading the npc.

[zebramatt]

With the basement rooms having tiny gaps now, that part is by design.

Would it be feasible to make the room generator only make 1 tile high gaps that are either at ground level at both sides, facilitating duck sliding both ways, or above ground level at both sides, ensuring miniature is required for both sides? Otherwise a player could slide in one side and then find themselves irrevocably stuck.

I know, risk and all that, but I just have this nightmare of one day seeing TB doing 'WTF is AVWW' and going into a building, sliding into a gap, and then raging at the game when he finds himself stuck forever. Not the thing you want 200,000 youtube viewers seeing!

Although you have a point with your second paragraph there, I gather that this is as intended as your falling into a hole with no way out - i.e. you're boned but maybe you'll be more careful with the next guy!

[Terraziel]

Although you have a point with your second paragraph there, I gather that this is as intended as your falling into a hole with no way out - i.e. you're boned but maybe you'll be more careful with the next guy!

I think the issue is that it "feels" like you are getting screwed by a bug, if my own actions kill me say be falling in to the ocean shallows for example or shooting out the floor whilst standing over lava or what have you, then that makes sense, but with the one way tunnels you end up having to kill yourself because you are just stuck, Which is unpleasant at the very least.

Risk has to be balanced by fairness, and this comes across as horribly unfair.

Rather, if it is left in for 1.0 then you will get complaints about it, and it will be reported as a bug over and over. As BobTheJanitor says just hope it doesn't happen to a reviewer

[zebramatt]

Well I don't entirely disagree with that but I do think it extends to other scenarios.

When I once fell down what must have been a seven foot hole and could then not extricate myself due to a lack of platforms, double jump or warp potions (when they were a thing), it felt kinda lame.

But then, I've certainly not looked at a seven foot drop with quite the same reckless abandon ever since...

[TechSY730]

General game convention has it that for non-puzzle games, unwinnable states need to be a game-over, give some clear way of escape via death, or at least a message.

Traditionally, such "unescapable but no way to die states" have been strongly associated with bugs. In fact, this correlation is so strong, that if this happens, it "feels" like a cheap bug, whether it was an intentional game design decision or not.

Again, the exception is with puzzle games (and to a lesser extent, card games), were part of the game is wondering if you are stuck or not. AVWW is not really a puzzle game though.

Some games deal with this by providing a "suicide" button, especially in cases where preventing all such scenarios is impractical (often, games with dynamically generated levels or strong use of user generated levels)

[Terraziel]

Well I don't entirely disagree with that but I do think it extends to other scenarios.

When I once fell down what must have been a seven foot hole and could then not extricate myself due to a lack of platforms, double jump or warp potions (when they were a thing), it felt kinda lame.

But then, I've certainly not looked at a seven foot drop with quite the same reckless abandon ever since...

Whilst obviously similar I suppose the reason it's not an issue to the same degree is because the game goes out of it's way to give you huge quantities of platforms, the game recognises that people get stuck in pits, additionally there is a sense of expectation, a pit is a pit,  it's unlikely for me to feel I have glitched my way into one.

EDIT:

Some games deal with this by providing a "suicide" button, especially in cases where preventing all such scenarios is impractical (often, games with dynamically generated levels or strong use of user generated levels)

The thing to note about this is that none of the "suicide" buttons that I can think of actually cost you anything, whereas currently in AVWW you lose character progression.

[TechSY730]

the game recognises that people get stuck in pits

It does? I haven't played for quite some time, so I wouldn't know.
What does it do when you get stuck in one?

[Terraziel]

the game recognises that people get stuck in pits

It does? I haven't played for quite some time, so I wouldn't know.
What does it do when you get stuck in one?

I meant that in the sense of that by providing you with a number of ways of extricating yourself from pits the designers are clearly aware that it's an issue. As it stands you cannot start a new game without getting wooden platforms.

[TechSY730]

the game recognises that people get stuck in pits

It does? I haven't played for quite some time, so I wouldn't know.
What does it do when you get stuck in one?

I meant that in the sense of that by providing you with a number of ways of extricating yourself from pits the designers are clearly aware that it's an issue. As it stands you cannot start a new game without getting wooden platforms.

Ah, preventative action.
Still nothing in place for the horrible, albeit unlikely, case where you manage to fall in a pit and have no platforms.


For the being stuck in a "1 tile high" hallway while ducking thing, how about allowing a VERY slow move speed while ducking. Like so slow, it would be impractical for ANY sort of dodging, no better then standing still. But at least you would have some recourse in the case where you duck in a bad place.

[BobTheJanitor]

For the being stuck in a "1 tile high" hallway while ducking thing, how about allowing a VERY slow move speed while ducking. Like so slow, it would be impractical for ANY sort of dodging, no better then standing still. But at least you would have some recourse in the case where you duck in a bad place.

Wouldn't solve it, since the problem stems specifically from not being able to duck jump, therefore not being able to enter a 1 tile gap when it is above floor level.

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Observing the bad ascii art above, here is a one tile high gap that you could easily slide into from the left side, but would then be stuck at if approaching from the right side. (without mini, of course) I still maintain the best solution is to either ensure that every 1-tile gap either generates with no drop-offs on either side of it for X number of tiles, or that if it is above ground level that it be the same on both sides.


Edit: Looks like this has been fixed in another way:

    The "sliding while ducking" feature, despite being something that a lot of players really like, has been removed as a general feature.
        This was something that, in inexperienced hands, was far too easy to trap a player in a small hold that they could slide into but then not walk out of, etc.
        Thanks to Bluddy for suggesting.

    A new "Powerslide" enchant type can now be found and applied to your legs.
        This gives back the "sliding while ducking" ability for players who find it and want to use it -- therefore, those players keen to have that ability still can, but newbies don't get bitten by it.

[freeformschooler]

Uh oh...

Looks like it's possible to get stuck in the ground somehow after exiting a house. Might be time to register for Mantis...

[zebramatt]

Edit: Looks like this has been fixed in another way:

    The "sliding while ducking" feature, despite being something that a lot of players really like, has been removed as a general feature.
        This was something that, in inexperienced hands, was far too easy to trap a player in a small hold that they could slide into but then not walk out of, etc.
        Thanks to Bluddy for suggesting.

    A new "Powerslide" enchant type can now be found and applied to your legs.
        This gives back the "sliding while ducking" ability for players who find it and want to use it -- therefore, those players keen to have that ability still can, but newbies don't get bitten by it.

Now if only they could limit my ability to fall down holes to an enchant! 

Uh oh...

Looks like it's possible to get stuck in the ground somehow after exiting a house. Might be time to register for Mantis...

Do it!

[The Mimic]

I think falling in a pit and having to abandon your character is a perfectly legitimate way to lose. I believe a grave in the tutorial even warns "... if only he had brought wooden platforms!" - This is the game saying "Hey, if you fall somewhere and don't have platforms, you're probably in a bad way!"

I'm all for fairness and usability but once you start sterilizing too many of the dangers a game feels really plastic and boring. Not letting a player fall off a cliff or having them always catch on and pulling themselves up, for instance, makes exciting and risky areas really, really boring. Remember that one level with the mountains and red mushrooms in Super Mario 64? That level still gives me nightmares, because sliding off the edges of the shrooms happened to be so easy. But man, it offered a sense of accomplishment when you finally got that star...

Removing the ability for players to powerslide into tiny crevices is probably alright though. It'd be a little irritating to have your guy die because he can't figure out how to crawl! :p