Author Topic: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!  (Read 9433 times)

Offline Dizzard

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2012, 05:08:37 pm »
I like the pictures for each area when you right click on it. I was literally going to suggest something like that on mantis last night but didn't in the end because I wasn't sure if it was something you wanted to worry about doing before 1.0

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2012, 05:09:46 pm »
Glad you like it -- I think it really classes up that screen, too. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Moo

  • Newbie Mark III
  • *
  • Posts: 43
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2012, 05:16:51 pm »
Small issue with clockwork probes in assassination missions - they're not ignoring me like the other creatures do, they immediately swarm and attack. With the increased damage, this is a bit of a problem!
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=6021

(Also, with the spawning of those things fixed overall, they are rapidly becoming my least favourite enemy... :) )

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2012, 06:37:39 pm »
Hey did this change from last version:
Quote
Rather than always showing the cost on the upgrade screen in red, which was confusing, it now shows the costs in red when the on-hand stock is not enough, and in green when the on-hand stock is enough to do the upgrade.
somehow get reverted? It still shows everything in red even when a craft requires 1x and I have 32x of a given item.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2012, 06:45:05 pm »
Are you talking about crafting?  That was referring to upgrade stones only.  If it's doing that on crafting, that would be a completely a different issue.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2012, 07:00:44 pm »
Ahhhh yes. I was just reading it completely wrong. I thought it was talking about a change to the way crafting items were shown so you could see at a glance what you had and what you needed... oopsie! Well, off to go request what I thought it was talking about in the first place.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2012, 07:02:01 pm »
No worries, and that is a good idea for an enhancement to that other screen.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2012, 07:27:02 pm »
So I'm finding myself stuck in a tier orb trap in my world. I'm currently in tier 2, getting t3 orbs, and about one mission away from hitting t3/4. I've found one diluter enchant, but it's a 5 => 4 enchant, so no help there. And even if I managed to find a 3 => 2 enchant, I could only do one mission with it before it would become useless. Now part of this is because I was playing this when the higher tier orb drop change was made, so I had almost no time to gather tier 2 orbs before everything tier 2 started dropping tier 3. I don't know the likelihood of this happening in a continent played from the start under the current system. But I'm not sure if I'm not just going to end up painting myself into a corner here. Is anyone else having this problem, or is this just my own fault for refusing to drop my original world from the first beta?

I'm wondering if it would be viable to make spells of tier X just require an orb of tier X or less to craft, so there's no fiddly diluter enchants to worry about and I could just burn my tier 3 orbs on tier 1 or 2 spells if I wanted to. Or even unlink the spells from requiring previous tiers and just let you craft whatever as long as you have the ingredients. Maybe it does balance out fine in a normal game and I'm worrying about a non-existent problem, but right now it's looking rather grim for me.

I may end up having to turn the difficult down to drooling idiot level and just bully my way through. There's something like 2 or 3 overlords still on this one giant continent and I'm afraid I'm going to end up fighting them off with the one single spell that I've managed to get up to tier 3. Hope they're not resistant!

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2012, 07:38:07 pm »
And even if I managed to find a 3 => 2 enchant, I could only do one mission with it before it would become useless.
It also converts 4's and 5's to 2s.

I don't have a particular response to the rest, just wanted to point that out :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2012, 07:40:48 pm »
So I'm finding myself stuck in a tier orb trap in my world. I'm currently in tier 2, getting t3 orbs, and about one mission away from hitting t3/4. I've found one diluter enchant, but it's a 5 => 4 enchant, so no help there. And even if I managed to find a 3 => 2 enchant, I could only do one mission with it before it would become useless. Now part of this is because I was playing this when the higher tier orb drop change was made, so I had almost no time to gather tier 2 orbs before everything tier 2 started dropping tier 3. I don't know the likelihood of this happening in a continent played from the start under the current system. But I'm not sure if I'm not just going to end up painting myself into a corner here. Is anyone else having this problem, or is this just my own fault for refusing to drop my original world from the first beta?

You're going to have trouble until you get to tier 5, after which you can dilute as much as you want; but in general it's impossible for a properly started world to have this problem.  Why?  Because you always get an exactly predictable amount of tier orbs with each CP increase.  Guaranteed, in a fresh world.  Unlike what has happened in your world because of getting caught between upgrades.

Thus the only way someone could do this in a fresh world is if they spend all their tier 2 orbs on logistical spells or something, and never unlock combat spells but later want them.  Then they would get into kind of a similar boat as you, but both situations are recoverable without starting a new world.

I'm wondering if it would be viable to make spells of tier X just require an orb of tier X or less to craft, so there's no fiddly diluter enchants to worry about and I could just burn my tier 3 orbs on tier 1 or 2 spells if I wanted to. Or even unlink the spells from requiring previous tiers and just let you craft whatever as long as you have the ingredients. Maybe it does balance out fine in a normal game and I'm worrying about a non-existent problem, but right now it's looking rather grim for me.

Definitely no on all counts there.  That's like being able to skip marks in ships in AI War.  Those limitations are there specifically to make it so that choices actually matter.  Otherwise there is no long-term tech tree at all.  But you're essentially in a position where a bunch of stuff that was guaranteed for the average player to get is being withheld from your specific world -- that's like starting AI War with a 20k knowledge handicap or something.  You can recover, but it's painful.

I may end up having to turn the difficult down to drooling idiot level and just bully my way through. There's something like 2 or 3 overlords still on this one giant continent and I'm afraid I'm going to end up fighting them off with the one single spell that I've managed to get up to tier 3. Hope they're not resistant!

Enchants will also help.  But yeah... multiple overlords on one continent really makes it harder, too.  The older worlds are meant to upgrade forward, and they do, but in some cases like yours they really give a completely sideways experience from the norm.  The worst situation is for those people (like you) who got to a higher tier before we did the tier orb fix, and then missed a lower tier of orbs because of it.  Sorry about that!  But it's a problem with your case specifically, not the game as a whole for regular worlds.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Martyn van Buren

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 642
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2012, 10:20:30 pm »

I'm wondering if it would be viable to make spells of tier X just require an orb of tier X or less to craft, so there's no fiddly diluter enchants to worry about and I could just burn my tier 3 orbs on tier 1 or 2 spells if I wanted to. Or even unlink the spells from requiring previous tiers and just let you craft whatever as long as you have the ingredients. Maybe it does balance out fine in a normal game and I'm worrying about a non-existent problem, but right now it's looking rather grim for me.

Definitely no on all counts there.  That's like being able to skip marks in ships in AI War.  Those limitations are there specifically to make it so that choices actually matter.  Otherwise there is no long-term tech tree at all.  But you're essentially in a position where a bunch of stuff that was guaranteed for the average player to get is being withheld from your specific world -- that's like starting AI War with a 20k knowledge handicap or something.  You can recover, but it's painful.


Hey, I'm sorry to open this can of worms, but why do we want a long-term tech tree?  In AI War, every game is different and the AI has different ships and abilities, so you're making situational strategic choices that should have ramifications over the whole game.   e.g. "Okay, right now I have to defend a very wide border, so I'd like more fleet ships that are easier to divide up among a few fronts.  But I can see some good choke points a few worlds out, so I could solve this problem that way, and I've been seeing some tractor platforms, which will be a lot easier to deal with focussing more on starships" --- I have enough information to think about what my needs will be after a few hours of play.

AVWW doesn't really have this quality --- it seems like every challenge is pretty much independent from the others, so there isn't much you can do at tier two to think about what you'll need at tier five.  There doesn't seem to be much about the game state at tier two that tells me what it'll be like at tier five --- whether I'm going to prefer fireball or forest rage basically seems to depend on whether missions spawn in deserts or ice age regions (bad example on the details).  Nor do there seem to be qualitatively different challenges to anticipate at higher tiers --- tier two spell against tier two enemy is (if I understand right) basically the same thing as tier five spell against tier five enemy, whereas AI War continues to throw a range of different-mark ships at you as you advance and you have to be able to deal with them all.

I don't think this is a problem with AVWW --- it belongs to a genre where the moment is more important than the overall sweep of the game, and where variety in game feel comes much more from the player's changing powers than from strategic choices made by enemies.  But unless some larger long-term metagame elements are going to be coming into play, I find myself wondering whether it really suits the game and adds any depth to make spell choice a per-continent commitment rather than a per-tier one.


Equally, there isn't much difference between a tier two spell at tier two and a tier five spell against at tier five; whereas in AI War you continue to face lower-level enemies and ultimately have to take on much larger and more complex challenges at the core and homeworlds.  Unless this is going to change, it seems to me that there's no good reason to have long-term tech commitments; since the challenges are pretty consistent across the tiers the only result of your long-term choices seems to be "This loadout is pretty good" vs. "Oh damn, this loadout kind of sucks."

Basically, when I think about unlocks in AI War, I often have to think seriously about the game state and where it's likely to go;  As the game is now, I can't see AVWW ever having a more complex choice than "Miasma whip is cool, I'd like to keep using it at higher tiers.  But circle of fire is cool too." 

Offline Oralordos

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
  • Suffering from Chronic Backstabbing Disorder
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2012, 12:00:26 am »
that's like starting AI War with a 20k knowledge handicap or something.  You can recover, but it's painful.
That sounds like it could be interesting to try sometime.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2012, 08:39:37 am »
that's like starting AI War with a 20k knowledge handicap or something.  You can recover, but it's painful.
That sounds like it could be interesting to try sometime.
You can do it by doing "give me k,-20000" (with cheats enabled) at some point in the game where you have 20k or more.  I don't think it lets you go negative, though.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2012, 11:38:12 am »
With the basement rooms having tiny gaps now, that part is by design.

Would it be feasible to make the room generator only make 1 tile high gaps that are either at ground level at both sides, facilitating duck sliding both ways, or above ground level at both sides, ensuring miniature is required for both sides? Otherwise a player could slide in one side and then find themselves irrevocably stuck.

I know, risk and all that, but I just have this nightmare of one day seeing TB doing 'WTF is AVWW' and going into a building, sliding into a gap, and then raging at the game when he finds himself stuck forever. Not the thing you want 200,000 youtube viewers seeing!

Offline Hyfrydle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: AVWW Beta 0.579 "Secret Daring Rescues" Released!
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2012, 03:05:27 pm »
Have I missed this is the patch notes do the monster spawners in boss rooms disappear once the boss is destroyed?

On further inspection maybe they just become invisible I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 03:09:24 pm by Hyfrydle »