Author Topic: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!  (Read 3680 times)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« on: February 15, 2012, 10:18:42 pm »
Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2012/02/avww-beta-0577-transplant-upgrade.html

This one has a really large amount of random polish/bugfix items in it, and the overall effect on the game is pretty notable.  Things are visually and game-flow-wise smoother, and a number of the minor annoyances that people have reported have been dealt with.

Several key interfaces are also now more self-explanatory, and are also now more visually-oriented for faster navigation.  Oh, and the stats of characters have been rejiggered a ton, so that they actually have more of an impact on gameplay; having a lot or a little mana, for instance, now actually creates a difference in game feel.

Upgrade Stones
The really exciting new thing in this release isn't something that we'd really planned on doing, though: vitality stones have become upgrade stones.  The general idea is that now each character has a limited number of upgrades (10), but they can be spread across three categories rather than all having to go into the health category.

This is obviously a big win for character customization, which is something that people have shown a lot of interest in.  But it's also a big win for the meaningfulness of permadeath: because whatever upgrades you have applied to your character all get lost on death.

There are a couple of ways to avoid this loss on permadeath:

First of all, try not to die.  The death of a maturely-upgraded character should be the culmination of a lot of mistakes, not a single missed jump or what have you.  So if you have a character that you care a lot about (for gameplay reasons, not thematic/emotional reasons), then take extra care.

Secondly, if you have a character you love, and you're about to go somewhere that they are not suited for (or that is just too high-risk in general), then you can use the newly-patched-up Glyph Transplant scroll to leave them at your settlement and take another NPC along as your character instead.

Doing this, you can actually build up a small stable of buffed-up NPCs that are each suited for specific kinds of tasks -- or you can just play each character until they die, and then build a new one from the ground up.  Either way is valid at the average difficulty, but the point is that now you have a lot more choices (and some new ways to deal with the higher difficulties, in particular).

More to come soon.  There's more stuff along the lines of this sort of cleanup/polish/training/clarity that we're working on, but we're also working on new missions.  Keith has majorly upgraded battlefield missions today, although they weren't quite ready for release yet, and we're both really looking forward to implementing a bunch of the player-suggested missions (plus some more ideas of our own) very soon.  Enjoy!

This is a standard update that you can download through the in-game updater itself, if you already have 0.500 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have 0.500 or later, you can download that here.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline mrhanman

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2012, 10:36:32 pm »
I'm really satisfied with the changes that have been made just over the last month.  I have fallen in love with the game again!  :-*

Can't wait for 1.0  8)

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2012, 11:24:29 pm »
Glad to hear it! :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline BobTheJanitor

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,689
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2012, 12:13:13 am »
One thing I just noticed, on this:
Quote
Having your position corrected (from being stuck) no longer causes falling damage, and sliding into tight spaces while ducking no longer causes you to get teleported to a valid position when you stand up.

In theory, a character without the miniature spell could duck through a crack leading to a lower area, and then be stuck. Since you can't duck while jumping, there's no way to jump and duck into a crack that is above ground level. With no warp scrolls/potions any more these kinds of stuck areas could be a problem. I've been a little worried about this sort of scenario ever since inventory warp items were replaced with scenery warp items.

How viable would it be to have a long cooldown warp-to-home-settlement item? Just rip a page right out of the MMORPG handbook and have a hearthstone-like device with a 1-2 hour cooldown that can be used to get back home. Such a long cooldown keeps it from being easily abusable, but it does give an out for impossibly stuck situations outside of just suicide for a perfectly good character.

Offline Jalen Wanderer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2012, 02:07:02 am »
In theory, a character without the miniature spell could duck through a crack leading to a lower area, and then be stuck.

That's not just "in theory"... exactly that just happened to me!  I was messing around in a destroyed room, slipped down a crack, and then realized I had no way back out.  I thought I was stuck for good until it occurred to me that I could get out by turning into a bat.  Still, if I hadn't had those turn-into-a-bat scrolls, yeah, that would have pretty much been the end of that character.

Offline Hyfrydle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2012, 04:15:29 am »
Just to clarify in the patch notes it states more chunks are now seeded in surface dungeons does this mean more chunks in a region? I'm confused as to what you mean when you say surface dungeon as I wouldn't class the overworld region chunks as dungeons.

Hope this makes sense.

Offline zebramatt

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,574
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2012, 05:45:09 am »
So, I've been thinking about the new upgrade mechanics. Generally I really like the change, but a couple of things don't sit quite right with me at the moment. (This is probably better suited to the brainstorming subforum.)

First, the existence of a 10-upgrade cap seems juxtaposed with the potential longevity of characters: once you reach your 10, all further upgrade stones are completely useless for that character. Sure, they'll come in handy if you ever lose your character but there's no exciting choice there.

Second, the fact that each path becomes exponentially more expensive (coupled with the 10-upgrade limit) seems to encourage generalist characters. By far the quickest way to power up your character will be to focus on mana and attack, with a few in health. Specialisation's payoffs don't become any more attractive as you upgrade but do become more expensive, so beyond a certain point you're either discouraging specialisation; or conversely penalising certain playstyles.

I'd be in favour of making the upgrade cost curves of each path start at the same base (and maybe make health upgrades increase life by 50% or 75% rather than 100% for balance?) and encourage generalists as now for, say, three levels, but then inflate further upgrades in other paths relative to your specialisation.

For example, you've upgraded attack twice (8, 16) and mana twice (8, 16) and then hit level 3 health upgrade (8, 16, 32) - so the cost of upgrading attack or mana jumps from 32 to 64. The game would obviously warn you when this was about to happen; and the upgrade path GUI would make it obvious how many stones you need for the next level of each, and why. (You'd even have an excuse to name classes at that point - "Health Specialist" or "Tank" or "Brute" or whatever.)

There's then lesser need for hard '10-upgrades-only' style caps, since once you get to 10 your costs are going to be pretty high to keep going in any one field, let alone trying to level all three. And it keeps interesting choices around for a lot longer, potentially.

The only flaw I can see with that is that you might tie yourself into a single character specialisation with no escape short of having your character killed and starting over. Perhaps a really expensive Guardian Ability might then allow you to trade your stats back into stones so you can try a different path (and maybe the conversion is very inefficient, so you end up level 2 in all stats and only have 128 stones to show for it, or something).

Which reminds me, actually: I think simply renaming the "Abandon Character" button to "Retire Character" or similar would go a long way to alleviating guilt from having to strand a character for whatever reason.  :)

Offline Toll

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 452
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 08:20:12 am »
I've actually had some thoughts about a retirement function for a while, but right now I can't really see what you'd gain from it. Originally I had thought that you could get a bit of a happiness and/or morale boost, but since those aren't in anymore, that path won't work. Perhaps, after building a special building, you could have a retinue of characters? You retire one, and that one gets put into stasis, and you start anew with a fresh slate. You could then switch back and forth between the characters while in the settlement (or any settlement that has constructed that specific building).

I know you can kindof do this by using the glyph transfer spell, but that would require an available NPC that you actually want to play as, as well as a glyph transfer scroll, and it'd be trickier to move the characters between settlements.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2012, 08:53:07 am »
One thing I just noticed, on this:
Quote
Having your position corrected (from being stuck) no longer causes falling damage, and sliding into tight spaces while ducking no longer causes you to get teleported to a valid position when you stand up.

In theory, a character without the miniature spell could duck through a crack leading to a lower area, and then be stuck.

In theory, a character without the miniature spell could duck through a crack leading to a lower area, and then be stuck.

That's not just "in theory"... exactly that just happened to me!  I was messing around in a destroyed room, slipped down a crack, and then realized I had no way back out.  I thought I was stuck for good until it occurred to me that I could get out by turning into a bat.  Still, if I hadn't had those turn-into-a-bat scrolls, yeah, that would have pretty much been the end of that character.

I thought about this, and my thought is: yes, your character just died.  If you jump down into an lava pool and can't get out in time, you've also just died.  There are ways to prevent both from being a death sentence:

1. Carry bat scrolls or miniature with you when you're going around in tiny spaces (even miniature alone makes it possible to get stuck in a deep and narrow hole, so bat scrolls are certainly prized).
2. Carry wooden crates with you when you're near lava, so that you can ride those out.

Environ has just had a cataclysm and is a really dangerous place, right?  That was the thing I liked least about the old warp mechanics, is that they were kind of a get out of jail free card.  We put the abandon character button on the menu for a reason. :)  But in all seriousness, there's always been a bit of a rougelike influence to this game, and the old warp mechanics were covering a lot of that up.  Not that I want to go over the top with this -- the well-prepared character is perfectly safe from small holes, as Jalen Wanderer demonstrated, but the ill-prepared character might die in an oubliette.  Seems about right to me!  :D

Just to clarify in the patch notes it states more chunks are now seeded in surface dungeons does this mean more chunks in a region? I'm confused as to what you mean when you say surface dungeon as I wouldn't class the overworld region chunks as dungeons.

Yes, the surface of the region.  Interiors, undergrounds, and surfaces are all noted as "dungeons" in this game.  Hence the dungeon map, etc.

First, the existence of a 10-upgrade cap seems juxtaposed with the potential longevity of characters: once you reach your 10, all further upgrade stones are completely useless for that character. Sure, they'll come in handy if you ever lose your character but there's no exciting choice there.

This is why so much work went into the glyph transfers scroll this past release.  Also, the likelihood of most characters surviving to even their 10-upgrade cap is not very high.  The expectation is that most characters will die well before that, and if you have one that lasts longer, then lucky for you.

Second, the fact that each path becomes exponentially more expensive (coupled with the 10-upgrade limit) seems to encourage generalist characters. By far the quickest way to power up your character will be to focus on mana and attack, with a few in health. Specialisation's payoffs don't become any more attractive as you upgrade but do become more expensive, so beyond a certain point you're either discouraging specialisation; or conversely penalising certain playstyles.

That's only partly true.  The actual base stats of a character tend to be highly specialized.  So if you choose one that is highly specialized already, but then add on some cheap upgrades to them before that stat gets too expensive, you suddenly have a powerhouse in that stat.  And your choice is then to keep stacking there, making a really expensive and rare character, or to tempt you into just getting the cheaper things elsewhere.

In other words, the lower-price secondary lines are the candy that will rot your teeth.  But coupled with the inevitability of death, they are potentially attractive versus blowing so many stones on a single character who might die soon anyhow.

I'd be in favour of making the upgrade cost curves of each path start at the same base (and maybe make health upgrades increase life by 50% or 75% rather than 100% for balance?) and encourage generalists as now for, say, three levels, but then inflate further upgrades in other paths relative to your specialisation.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree.  We're intentionally encouraging the players into non-optimal choices here.  That sounds counter-intuitive, but we do it a lot (with the players' blessing) in AI War, too.  "Candy tech" is just that.  A little bit is great, but too much wastes resources that would be better spent elsewhere.  If there aren't individual lines of exponential increases, then there's no tension: everyone just stacks all their points into their favorite stat.  It would be stupid in most cases to do anything other than stack one stat or another.  Instead, there's a tension between what you should be doing and what the game makes it easy for you to do.

There's then lesser need for hard '10-upgrades-only' style caps, since once you get to 10 your costs are going to be pretty high to keep going in any one field, let alone trying to level all three. And it keeps interesting choices around for a lot longer, potentially.

The need for this is absolute, and is twofold.  First of all, it keeps there from being runaway progress in any one stat (or in stats in general).  And secondly, it keeps death at the forefront: if you have 20 upgrades into a character, at great expense, you'd be petrified of losing that character.  Even 10 upgrades is pushing it a little, but I like that.  As it is, you're penalized less for death because you have less far to fall.

And if you're so good that you're not dying, then you're instead heavily incentivized to upgrade multiple characters and have backups.  Don't like having lots of stones hanging around when you hit upgrade 10?  No problem!  Glyph transplant to someone else of interest in your town, and start upgrading them.  In the View Settlement Residents screen, you can see everyone's stats, and even how many upgrades they have had.  Precisely to make this easy to do.

The only flaw I can see with that is that you might tie yourself into a single character specialisation with no escape short of having your character killed and starting over. Perhaps a really expensive Guardian Ability might then allow you to trade your stats back into stones so you can try a different path (and maybe the conversion is very inefficient, so you end up level 2 in all stats and only have 128 stones to show for it, or something).

Which reminds me, actually: I think simply renaming the "Abandon Character" button to "Retire Character" or similar would go a long way to alleviating guilt from having to strand a character for whatever reason.  :)

You're forgetting about glyph transplant scrolls.  Abandoning a character is killing them in the wild -- feel guilty. ;)  If you want a new character to play with, then rescue some NPCs until you have someone promising, then just transfer the glyph to them in your town.

I've actually had some thoughts about a retirement function for a while, but right now I can't really see what you'd gain from it. Originally I had thought that you could get a bit of a happiness and/or morale boost, but since those aren't in anymore, that path won't work. Perhaps, after building a special building, you could have a retinue of characters? You retire one, and that one gets put into stasis, and you start anew with a fresh slate. You could then switch back and forth between the characters while in the settlement (or any settlement that has constructed that specific building).

I know you can kindof do this by using the glyph transfer spell, but that would require an available NPC that you actually want to play as, as well as a glyph transfer scroll, and it'd be trickier to move the characters between settlements.

Now you gain the ability to have multiple upgraded characters in a single settlement, which is pretty handy.  And it incentivizes you to rescue lots of NPCs and build up your town more.  That's more difficult right now (due to no secret missions) than it will be soon, I might add.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Bluddy

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 434
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2012, 11:09:49 am »
Maybe instead of making the cost of the upgrades go up exponentially, you can make the amount that's upgraded become less and less -- aka diminishing returns. This makes it less daunting to upgrade: In the current system, I just got another 16 stones. Laziness and the need for immediate gratification pushes me to use it for whatever i can upgrade (say mana) rather than health, which now requires 64 stones (and seems too far off). The result is characters who are upgraded uniformly. On the other hand, if 16 stones will always buy me an upgrade, I can decide if it should be health (giving me another 5%) or mana (giving me 50%).

I think also if you do this, you can dispense with the maximum amount of upgrades. Diminishing returns means that even a character that's been around forever can only get so much health relative to its original health. Perhaps a guardian power can improve this limit a little, but otherwise, just let players feel like they can keep improving even if in actual fact it's super-rare to get to this point plus the amount that's gained is minimal.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2012, 11:20:03 am »
Maybe instead of making the cost of the upgrades go up exponentially, you can make the amount that's upgraded become less and less -- aka diminishing returns. This makes it less daunting to upgrade: In the current system, I just got another 16 stones. Laziness and the need for immediate gratification pushes me to use it for whatever i can upgrade (say mana) rather than health, which now requires 64 stones (and seems too far off). The result is characters who are upgraded uniformly. On the other hand, if 16 stones will always buy me an upgrade, I can decide if it should be health (giving me another 5%) or mana (giving me 50%).

I think also if you do this, you can dispense with the maximum amount of upgrades. Diminishing returns means that even a character that's been around forever can only get so much health relative to its original health. Perhaps a guardian power can improve this limit a little, but otherwise, just let players feel like they can keep improving even if in actual fact it's super-rare to get to this point plus the amount that's gained is minimal.

That's interesting, and in some ways tempting, but see my above notes.  The problem with your proposed system is that it has very little tension -- I might as well just max out all stats, and I can do so on the cheap.  There's no real heavy investment in long-term characters, and no real sense of loss at losing a character.  And again, your being tempted into the wrong actions are exactly what the current system is designed to do -- tempt you. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2012, 11:41:14 am »
That's interesting, and in some ways tempting, but see my above notes.  The problem with your proposed system is that it has very little tension -- I might as well just max out all stats, and I can do so on the cheap.  There's no real heavy investment in long-term characters, and no real sense of loss at losing a character.  And again, your being tempted into the wrong actions are exactly what the current system is designed to do -- tempt you. :)

Forgive me if I sound arrogant, but IMO, its seems like a awkward to deliberately design a system such that the intuitive way to use it, the way it seems to be geared towards, is the wrong one, and you don't find out why its wrong until its too late to avoid major opportunity cost, or possibly actual loss.

It's almost like (but nowhere near as bad or blatant) as making an OK button actually cancel the action, and vice-versa. Sure, once you learn it, you can avoid that mistake in the future, but why not just make it clear what the overall intended use for it is clear? Why deliberate obfuscate it? It's learning the game, yes, but in a way that kind of annoys people.

I don't mind the current system, as long as you make it clear that it is intended that you can switch around characters to spread around the upgrades, instead of the "advertised" approaches of grinding upgrade stones like a madman (due to the exponential need for them when sticking with one character), dumping them into one character, or upgrading uniformly. Not that there is anything wrong with those two approaches, but it is bad strategy to rely on them alone, but the current system "advertises" that you should rely on those two alone.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2012, 11:47:10 am »
Forgive me if I sound arrogant, but IMO, its seems like a awkward to deliberately design a system such that the intuitive way to use it, the way it seems to be geared towards, is the wrong one, and you don't find out why its wrong until its too late to avoid major opportunity cost, or possibly actual loss.

You completely misunderstand.  Having a generalist character is fine.  It's tempting and easy, and you can still get some specialization based on the base stats of your character.  It's what newbies will do, and they will be fine.  For average difficulty play, you need not ever do anything different.

When you get to more advanced play, and really want to take care with your characters because every point counts, that's where this stuff kicks in.  None of this matters until the players are a certain skill level, and by the time that happens they will feel smart for figuring out the game system and a better way to play.  Much better than just handing them easy choices from the start.

That's the key thing with a system like this: make the obvious choices not the best ones, but satisfactory for early play.  Then make the better choices more trying to make in the sense that it is tempting not to make them, but let players discover that those choices actually are better as the players improve in skill.  Nothing awkward or unusual about this at all, tons of games do it.  It's a fundamental strategy for player progress in skill in games, matter of fact.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2012, 11:51:40 am »
Forgive me if I sound arrogant, but IMO, its seems like a awkward to deliberately design a system such that the intuitive way to use it, the way it seems to be geared towards, is the wrong one, and you don't find out why its wrong until its too late to avoid major opportunity cost, or possibly actual loss.

You completely misunderstand.  Having a generalist character is fine.  It's tempting and easy, and you can still get some specialization based on the base stats of your character.  It's what newbies will do, and they will be fine.  For average difficulty play, you need not ever do anything different.

When you get to more advanced play, and really want to take care with your characters because every point counts, that's where this stuff kicks in.  None of this matters until the players are a certain skill level, and by the time that happens they will feel smart for figuring out the game system and a better way to play.  Much better than just handing them easy choices from the start.

That's the key thing with a system like this: make the obvious choices not the best ones, but satisfactory for early play.  Then make the better choices more trying to make in the sense that it is tempting not to make them, but let players discover that those choices actually are better as the players improve in skill.  Nothing awkward or unusual about this at all, tons of games do it.  It's a fundamental strategy for player progress in skill in games, matter of fact.

Ah that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AVWW Beta 0.577 "Transplant Upgrade" Released!
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2012, 12:08:33 pm »
No problem.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!