Arcen Games
General Category => A Valley Without Wind 1 & 2 => Topic started by: x4000 on December 13, 2011, 12:57:37 pm
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Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2011/12/avww-beta-0550-power-coding-round-4.html
This one is one that we decided to push out today because there are a few critical balance tweaks and bugfixes that players could really use.
Mission System Preview
In terms of the core feature of this new version, the missions: the general framework is complete and in place, but there is currently only one kind of mission rather than the four we had planned for our first missions release. And that's definitely shy of the eight that we have planned for the next few weeks, let alone however many mission types we wind up with by 1.0.
So take this as sort of a preview of missions, more than anything else. Longer-term, missions will be the sole source of EXP (aside from killing lieutenants and overlords), but since they are still in a preview state we've left in the EXP containers and the EXP from bosses for now.
In the brainstorming subforum, we'd originally talked about having side missions and core missions. We also talked about making it a binary system and removing EXP all together. In further design discussion, Keith and I came up with a simpler approach that meets all of the goals of the above in a more fun fashion.
How The Mission System Will Work
The mission system framework itself is actually completely done in the current version. There will almost always be 7 missions, but right at the start there will be only 5 or 6 (this happens only when you are civ level 1 and 2 respectively).
The release notes talk about the three general levels of missions: the "stretch" ones that are higher than your civ level, the middle of the road ones that match your civ level, and what Keith and I were calling the "cop out" missions that are lower than your civ level (but we won't really call them that in-game!).
Each mission that is shown only will last for a certain number more of missions. Each time you undertake a mission, all of the other missions become unavailable until you complete that mission or abandon it. If you abandon it, you can try that mission again, or any other mission. If you complete that mission, then the mission and all its mission-specific dungeons disappear, and the counter counts down on all the other missions. As missions disappear, new missions appear to take their place.
This means that there's an opportunity cost to any mission you do, because you can never do all the missions. Some missions will focus more on improving the players' adventure options directly, while others will focus more on improving the civilization and thus helping out the adventurers a bit more indirectly (but still meaningfully).
So there will be all sorts of interesting choices that this system provides players with as they try to bend each continent to their will... but so far it's just a replacement for a way to get rare commodities. The first eight or so missions we're planning are all actually replacements for other activities that you could undertake previously in the game outside the mission structure. Things like rescuing NPCs, or building wind shelters, or destroying vortex pylons, are all planned to be missions and thus part of that opportunity-cost decision-making structure.
By the way, when you have multiple continents, you can have one active mission per continent, and the "mission time" is local to each continent, too. So that's a way for multiple groups to do different missions in multiplayer, versus everyone having to either collaborate on the same mission or go off on side exploration.
Still Powercoding, Balance Still Might Be Wonky In The Short Term
As noted last week, Keith and I have both entered a power coding phase to follow the recent brainstorming/design phase, so there are a few metric tons of changes coming through last week and this week. Given the scope of the changes, this means that the game is going to be in a moderate state of disarray during that time, in terms of general balance and such. We're doing our best to keep things as clean as possible, but the difficulty in particular might swing up and down some substantially during this time. The end result is going to be pretty darn cool by this Wednesday or Thursday, though.
More to come soon. Enjoy!
This is a standard update that you can download through the in-game updater itself, if you already have 0.500 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time. If you don't have 0.500 or later, you can download that here.
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Was playing around with a couple of missions just now. The bosses in the commodity towers combined with the mission XP definitely give too much - but as you said you're changing that, so it's fine. Exactly the opposite of the situation I had whilst still level one before this update!
Esper projectiles are somewhat irritating, and with the loss of health tanks there's only so much of it you can take before it really hurts. In confined spaces it's difficult or impossible to avoid them whilst they are sliding along the floor. Combine them with an amoeba boss and things get interesting!
Is there a reason the commodity towers don't contain normal skelebots?
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Struggling to find the ruin that activates the mission is there anything special about it?
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Esper projectiles are somewhat irritating, and with the loss of health tanks there's only so much of it you can take before it really hurts. In confined spaces it's difficult or impossible to avoid them whilst they are sliding along the floor. Combine them with an amoeba boss and things get interesting!
I suggest using shields for that, but the current method of shields is something coming up for review soonish.
Is there a reason the commodity towers don't contain normal skelebots?
Previously they didn't fit in a lot of interiors, but now they would. So, not any particular reason these days, no.
Struggling to find the ruin that activates the mission is there anything special about it?
You'll see it on your minimap like an entrance to anywhere else. They're always in the first surface chunk in a region. If they aren't there, then it probably failed to seed for some reason, although that shouldn't be happening with any new chunks (but it might happen with some pre-existing chunks that are really packed with stuff already).
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Checked all my mission chunks and nothing seems to have spawned. Should the mission chunk be yellow?
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I know the balance and difficulty and everything are totally up in the air at the moment but...
I think (especially now that you can't spam spells) junk mobs need to be more, well, junky. I feel many of them should be one hit kills, with some two hit and the occasional three hit kills. The meanest of them might require six hits, max.
You know, more Metroidvania- or Zelda- style.
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Checked all my mission chunks and nothing seems to have spawned. Should the mission chunk be yellow?
Wait... if you're in a mission chunk, then you've already activated it. The rare commodity tower is in the yellow chunk you're referring to.
I know the balance and difficulty and everything are totally up in the air at the moment but...
I think junk mobs need to be more, well, junky. I feel many of them should be one hit kills, with some two hit and the occasional three hit kills. The meanest of them might require six hits, max.
You know, more Metroidvania- or Zelda- style.
superking had a lot of good points to the contrary: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,9536.0.html
And anyhow, I really can't think of a way to make trash mobs both interesting and one-hit-killable. Doing that winds up with monsters that hardly ever get a shot off because they are dead before they can. In Zelda that's different because you have to get into melee range. In most Metroid games, the aiming tends to be more difficult, again making you have to get closer. I've been using FPS games as more of a guide, lately. We will be having weakspots on enemies, but that's not the case yet.
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All mission regions in my level 81 world apart from a super tough level 83 area don't seem to have spawned as far as I can tell. Just checked my level 3 world created at the weekend seems fine although i failed at the mission.
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Hmmm, that is odd. It was supposed to be seeding stuff in there, but not sure why it is not.
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What do the mission regions actually look like? I've had a good scan of my area and haven't seen anything unusual or new....
Surely there is some pointer or label?
EDIT: Hang on, found a group of them.
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What do the mission regions actually look like? I've had a good scan of my area and haven't seen anything unusual or new....
Their number is yellow instead of white, and it says "Mission" under them. And there is some sort of icon denoting the type of mission.
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I can see them on the map but in the chunks they are hard to find. Can they be above as well as on the ground?
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If you don't see them, probably they are not there.
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I know the balance and difficulty and everything are totally up in the air at the moment but...
I think junk mobs need to be more, well, junky. I feel many of them should be one hit kills, with some two hit and the occasional three hit kills. The meanest of them might require six hits, max.
You know, more Metroidvania- or Zelda- style.
superking had a lot of good points to the contrary: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,9536.0.html
And anyhow, I really can't think of a way to make trash mobs both interesting and one-hit-killable. Doing that winds up with monsters that hardly ever get a shot off because they are dead before they can. In Zelda that's different because you have to get into melee range. In most Metroid games, the aiming tends to be more difficult, again making you have to get closer. I've been using FPS games as more of a guide, lately. We will be having weakspots on enemies, but that's not the case yet.
Maybe the problem is I'm getting too close to bad guys, then! :)
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:)
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Although actually that presents one way in which you might maintain the interesting factor you're after here: make the range of the spell more directly linked to its attack power; such that (somewhat as now) melee spells are very strong for their cost, short range spells are pretty good, long range less so - but obviously you still have higher-cost spells for long range which do higher damage (as now).
Of course, it's difficult to say how much of what I'm experiencing presently is down to upheaval of balance (transient), specific enemy types (tweakable), my own playstyle (somewhat adaptable) or just things like my visible playscreen (relatively fixed). But I thought I'd chuck it out there regardless!
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And all that aside, one other* thing occurs to me: since it's presently possible (nay, obligatory!) to sit about in the chunk invulnerability bit soaking up mana until you're full, it might not be a terrible idea to have the chunk invincibility automatically refill you. Jumping in and out cheese should already be prevented due to current restrictions on invulnerability - although they might need to be tightened up further - and the only sensible alternative is to have no mana regeneration when in chunk invincibility... but that would just lead to waiting outside of chunks for the refresh before heading on, which is obviously a transference of the problem rather than a solution.
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Very good point on the chunk invulnerability thing, will add that to my list for later.
On the spell range thing, I actually really like the longer-range combat options and wouldn't want to make that less viable, but I think there's a long way to go on a lot of that before the true end balance is clear. It would be kind of like trying to balance AI War with only four or five of the bonus ship types in hand. You could sort of approximate that balance, but the end balance is really different. Here, as there, I think that variety is really key in terms of making for lots of ongoing tactical options, so I want to keep the balance being "pretty good, but plenty interesting" while working on more enemies and spells, and then closer to 1.0 actually nail down what the longer-term balance seems like it should be.
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Sure thing!
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Chris, Keith, I have only one thing to say: Faith restored. Nuff said.
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So when these drastics revamps are done, are there any plans on making combat feel more.. ehm, physical and the whole magic more immersive? Currently these floaty multiple projectiles feel all kinda cute and floaty, not really like attacks
And i am still missing sort of trails, glows and ambient particles from spells (so if a fireball hits some ember sparks floating around and glowing out wherever it hit, etc.)
And lastly, are there any plans to put beam-like and pulsed-beam spells in?
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Did the recent change of multiplied attack power possibly affect minibosses as well? Skelebot Giants suddenly seem very weak, although it could be that I simply didn't notice before... In numbers, they've got the physical attack power roughly equal to a sniper and normal skelebot, but its magical attack is only about half of a sniper.
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Chris, Keith, I have only one thing to say: Faith restored. Nuff said.
Glad you like it. :)
are there any plans on making combat feel more.. ehm, physical and the whole magic more immersive? Currently these floaty multiple projectiles feel all kinda cute and floaty, not really like attacks
And i am still missing sort of trails, glows and ambient particles from spells (so if a fireball hits some ember sparks floating around and glowing out wherever it hit, etc.)
And lastly, are there any plans to put beam-like and pulsed-beam spells in?
No plans on any of that, no. What you're talking about is largely visual polish, and we're not remotely to the point of thinking about that.
In terms of the actual combat with the multiple projectiles floating around, that's what we're going for -- that's precisely what we're talking about when we talk about shmups. The floatiness is important to make things dodge-able, etc. The original Castlevania, and a lot of other games of that nature, also used similar mechanics. When the projectiles move really fast, there are only two options: 1) don't be in the way when the shot is fired; 2) get hit. As superking pointed out, that's not exactly fun, so we've moved away from that.
And in terms of beam-like and pulsed-beam weapons, there is almost no chance of that prior to 1.0 as it would require a lot of new stuff in the physics model and I'm not really keen to do that at the moment. But there are a variety of other kinds of spells that are planned.
Did the recent change of multiplied attack power possibly affect minibosses as well? Skelebot Giants suddenly seem very weak, although it could be that I simply didn't notice before... In numbers, they've got the physical attack power roughly equal to a sniper and normal skelebot, but its magical attack is only about half of a sniper.
No, they never had a multiplier. Their balance was changed during the actual stats revamp in power coding round 1, so that is probably the source of why they are off.
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I'll wait until all powercoding is done then and toss a mantis up if they're still this weak by then. In the meanwhile, I'll just enjoy the towers in ice ages!
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:)
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How do you cancel a mission? I tried a level 3 mission while I was at level 1 and got absolutely murdered. I had no clue how to ditch the mission so I deleted the world and started over.
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Just hit escape and there's an Abandon Mission button. :)
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Thanks, I'll have to remember that for next time.
Overall, I'm liking how things are much better than I did a couple days ago. My decision not to use vitality stones for the moment helped out alot as I felt more accomplished for not losing them to pointless damage like I was before when I simply applied all of them right away.
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New one! http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,9594.0.html