Author Topic: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!  (Read 20038 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2011, 09:51:59 am »
The immediate thought that springs to mind is that spells with knockback would cause the server to have to recalculate the route, so five seconds might be a bit much (probably better with 2s?).
True, though knockback would wind up happening on all clients (I think it does now too, which looks fairly odd) so the worst is that the monster would potentially wander into a wall or something like that (and acting a bit dazed and confused after getting knocked 5 feet by a boulder isn't such a bad thing).  Also, I'm figuring most large bosses will need to be immune to knockback or at least suffer reduced knockback, though I dunno.

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In your model, melee attacks would become incredibly powerful if it applied to them as well (I would imagine it's relatively rare for two players to be in range of melee attacks at once, after all). As for ranged attacks, it sounds good (assuming it'd still attack every player it's actually able to attack).
Right, I didn't really elaborate but I wasn't thinking of it being attack-type-specific.  Basically if a monster on a client detected that its player was "hiding" or whatever, it would send some kind of "I'm getting frustrated with these weeny players" message to the server and each distinct player causing that would buff the boss's (not really thinking of normal monsters, dunno) attacks.  The logic for "when does it get frustrated" would need to be refined as we found cases where it was happening and shouldn't (for fun's sake) and where it wasn't happening and should.  And possibly the whole idea is flawed, but it seems like it has potential.
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Offline Toll

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2011, 10:03:30 am »
Yeah, I definitely like the basic premise of it. Would make melee monsters much easier to pick off though, but considering skelebot bosses have their fireballs and dragons have their fire-breath, I think it'd tip the balance back (unless you include minibosses, in which case the bats and faeries might need rebalancing).

And considering the regular monsters are little more than speedbumps, I see no problem if they get a bit easier to kill in MP compared to SP.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2011, 10:13:44 am »
Give it a go you might be pleasently suprised I was also dubious.
Ehm, I wouldn't be complaining UNLESS I had tried it. You cannot judge what you haven't seen.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2011, 10:18:29 am »
Someone up here mentioned Terraria, and Terraria is pulling its own problems as far as multiplayer goes. In any case where there is a high lag you'll have monsters "popping" around, which is honestly not such a bad thing, since they do this for ALL characters in play. But it does make certain skillshots difficult, especially in very high lag situations (200ms+) where monsters can entirely bypass you if you hit them in melee.

It only seems to update when they get hit and at very sparse intervals (several seconds), so a monster travelling at high speed towards you and gets hit by your blade, can potentially "pop" up behind you due to server lag. The monster still gets hit, and everyone sees the monster in the same place.

I feel that is a far superior system compared to "no syncing". Sorry Keith, but I'm just no friends with this idea :D
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2011, 11:18:55 am »
If you need to try a hybrid system, syncing enemy positions is probably more important than syncing enemy (and friendly) projectiles.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2011, 11:48:55 am »
(unless you include minibosses, in which case the bats and faeries might need rebalancing)
Bear in mind that the little fairies that are shot by the big fairies are actually projectiles rather than monsters for this purpose.

But yea, the melee-only bosses (vampire bats, iirc) would not fit neatly into this little scheme.

I'm thinking that if I try this it will be as an alternate model that some monsters use; namely the miniboss skelebot, the miniboss amoebas, and maybe a few others: the ones where it seems to make the most obvious sense.  Because if it doesn't work for a giant amoeba it needs to be reworked (or ditched in favor of something else) before being applied to much else anyway.

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Someone up here mentioned Terraria, and Terraria is pulling its own problems as far as multiplayer goes. In any case where there is a high lag you'll have monsters "popping" around, which is honestly not such a bad thing, since they do this for ALL characters in play. But it does make certain skillshots difficult, especially in very high lag situations (200ms+) where monsters can entirely bypass you if you hit them in melee.
Thank you for clarifying that, I've only played the very beginning parts of Terraria and wasn't sure if they were really managing all that massive laser pew-pew in MP with none of the restrictions we've seen elsewhere.  So they haven't defeated physics after all ;)  They go for lag-compensation rather than local-sim-of-monsters, so you can miss stuff that you would have hit if you were playing singleplayer, etc.  Not arguing that that is worse than what we have, just observing.

One thing about the "server-plots-a-course" approach is that I _think_ we can maintain the local-sim-of-monsters for the actual firing of their projectiles and the collision check for your projectiles so that we can still avoid missing when you wouldn't have missed in SP and getting hit when you wouldn't have gotten hit in SP.  The thing is that the enemies would still be in _slightly_ different positions between the various clients, but it would probably be close enough that you wouldn't notice except through deliberate scrutiny.

The downside is that it's not compatible with some of the behaviors of our current monsters like bats making split-second direction changes to chase a rapidly moving player.  I'm not sure, but my recollection of Terraria doesn't include anything like that: the slimes and underground-worms had fairly large delays between hops, the zombies would chase you but still had fairly relaxed changes in acceleration, etc.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2011, 12:41:52 pm »
For melee monsters, could you hand-off to the client of the player getting chased, so that person's computer takes the role of server for plotting the monster's movement, and trade off to other players if the monster decides to switch targets?

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2011, 01:00:30 pm »
For melee monsters, could you hand-off to the client of the player getting chased, so that person's computer takes the role of server for plotting the monster's movement, and trade off to other players if the monster decides to switch targets?
Something like that is possible (we thought about something like that a while ago) but it is both complex and actually increases the length of time it takes for the monster to make a movement decision and that decision to be reflected on all clients (because it has to go through the server and then to the clients; this is client-server, not peer-to-peer as that is extreme pain with drop-in-drop-out and more than a few players).

The fairies are a good example of a kind of "melee" that can work with this: they fire little things that actually melee you.  For monsters that are pure-melee they could either be given some kind of ranged extension or just use a different model.  For instance, having some or even all of the "trash" monsters be position-divergent probably doesn't matter a whole lot, it's the boss fights where the position-divergent model is a big letdown.  But it's possible that trash fights won't always be so trivial (I hope so, at least, though it kind of depends on how shmuppy the design stays; shmups have tons and tons of trivial trash enemies), so can't write off that part of it either.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2011, 01:10:51 pm »
Just to give you an example of why I'd like to see trash location accurate:

We were fighting a water amoeba in the desert, and the floor had a bunch of monster nests spawning the dust guys.  Any hit that knocked you down to the floor was near insta-death because of this.  So I wanted to cover my friend while he cleared some of the nests.  But I can't cover him because I can't see what is about to hit him.  I can kill as many as get into range of me, but we didn't have a good way of supporting each either with that strategy.

Offline Professor Paul1290

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2011, 01:34:12 pm »
I'm for trying out the "server plots a course" approach.

While I like the idea of not having to deal with "I saw myself hit that enemy but I really didn't" problems that other games have, I don't think the current approach would be well received.
Most players are used to putting up with and tolerating lag problems when playing with high ping, but they don't like it when enemy positions aren't at least somewhat synced.

While having the server plot out a course would slow down reactions from melee enemies, I don't think that would be all that bad as the game doesn't have that many enemies that rely purely on melee AND make quick decisions to change direction, most of the melee enemies as they are now tend to continue on their current path for a bit before turning around.

Bats (both boss and normal) as they are now would be a problem though. However, it might be acceptable to give them more inertia and maybe give them more damage to balance them out.

Offline Dizzard

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2011, 02:27:24 pm »
Just to give you an example of why I'd like to see trash location accurate:

We were fighting a water amoeba in the desert, and the floor had a bunch of monster nests spawning the dust guys.  Any hit that knocked you down to the floor was near insta-death because of this.  So I wanted to cover my friend while he cleared some of the nests.  But I can't cover him because I can't see what is about to hit him.  I can kill as many as get into range of me, but we didn't have a good way of supporting each either with that strategy.

This is a big worry, the only real indicator I have that my friend is in danger is if I see their health in the red.

It's a lot more satisfying to be able to take a preventive approach rather than a reactive approach though.

Offline Vampyre

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2011, 05:20:09 am »
I don't like the idea as well for the current setting... I mean it might be original, it is still impossible to get some small strategy with your teammate, or will never know when you need to go and save him... It will sound more like a solo where the resources are in common. And that's it.

Furthermore I don't understand why it is so impossible to sync all those datas. If I take Diablo 2, which is a game from 10 years back, I used to play on Battle Net. It was a 2D game (isometric to be precise), and you could team up with other people. There were sometimes a lot of ennemies, with a lot of particles and effects... But they all were synced. And 10 years from now it was a much slower connection than what we have today... Much lower bandwith and speed...

So I don't quite good understand why it is so impossible to make... I agree that with Diablo 2 (and D3 as well), each game was populated by a max people inside the game. Why not give that kind of limitation ? For D3, everyone shouted that it was a bad idea to limit one game to 4 people playing together. And now with the beta, they all said it was enough and great that way.

Instead of not knowing how much people can join, what about setting up a limitation ? Well, one idea, amongst all the others :)

Offline Toll

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2011, 05:57:59 am »
The speed of the connection doesn't make much of a difference in ping though, if any. For instance, I'm currently on a 100Mbit connection, and I know I'd have the exact same ping to servers if I switched to a 2Mbit connection (or a gigabit connection, for that matter), so the argument that a ten-year-old game managed (partly; Diablo 2, in all its glory, still had problems with lag) falls somewhat flat based on that.

Offline Vampyre

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2011, 06:18:18 am »
Don't worry, that is not an argument... I'm not that techy :-) I'm just wondering why it is working on other games, but not on this one...

Offline Toll

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Re: AVWW Beta 0.545, "Multiplayer Public Alpha (Opt-In)," Released!
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2011, 06:27:43 am »
If I understood Keith correctly, they opted for this approach because it'd mean you'd never miss a monster just because of lag. As an example: I'm in Europe, and I've got a 150ms ping to servers in the US (roughly; it varies depending on where exactly they are). I think people in Australia has twice that, if not more. I've heard of some people having as much as 500ms ping. In AVWW, monsters can cover quite a distance in 500ms, meaning it's rather likely you'll miss it unless you keep that 500ms in mind constantly (and even then it's entirely possible it veered off course). By having it all happen locally, it doesn't matter how far from the server you are; you fire and hit just as if you were playing it in single-player.