Appreciation

[BobTheJanitor]

Maybe the craftable warp scrolls and the free warp scrolls just need to be two different items entirely? That way you can craft as many as you want for free porting about, while always being able to stock up on at least an in/out combo every time you step out of the settlement.

[Nalgas]

I kind of have mixed feelings.  It does make crafting your own less appealing, I guess, but I sort of resent having to craft my own in the first place.  The only reason I would ever craft my own is because I can't use a single scroll to teleport in/out of a cave multiple levels deep, because it's separated into multiple levels for the sake of the dungeon map not being 150k pixels tall and so it has clear delineations for where the enemies become tougher.

Um, you can just press Period and select the lowest dungeon to warp to.

If that actually works to warp to different dungeon segments (as opposed to different rooms within the same segment), that's very handy.  Would you believe that I had no idea you could do that, despite playing since 0.401 in the alpha, because I never actually use the region map, just the dungeon map?  It won't work with the period or comma keys or anything like that, though.  I remapped those before I even started playing.  What good do keys on the opposite side of the keyboard do me?  Heh.

[zebramatt]

I disagree with this 'laziness' remark profusely!

Three warp scrolls would help maintain immersion on a long trek. Four even more so, though that's probably the most you'd ever need.

Town portal scrolls have always been about, "Oh, my inventory is getting full - best offload some stuff!" or, "My, my, I'm running low on x - best nip back and get some more!"

Warp scrolls are about, "God damn, it's a long way back across all those rooms, caverns, areas - there must be a quicker way!"

Thus, reach top of rather large building, warp back outside, carry on, plumb the depths of particularly deep cave, warp back up and carry on, reach final area, scale tower, defeat boss, warp back home.

As opposed to hopping back to base every five minutes just to stock up on some more free warp scrolls to ensure you have enough for your next hop and the one after that. 

EDIT

Maybe the craftable warp scrolls and the free warp scrolls just need to be two different items entirely? That way you can craft as many as you want for free porting about, while always being able to stock up on at least an in/out combo every time you step out of the settlement.

Now there's an idea.

[Nalgas]

Speaking of town portal scrolls, I've always hated them.  They piss me off.  Die die die.  In Torchlight I gave in and just learned the spell so I wouldn't have to put up with the scrolls' crap or waste an inventory slot on them or anything.

The one game in that genre that I think did it right was Titan Quest, which gave you a town portal stone, which you get for free when you first start out, can be used as many times as you want, at no cost, anywhere and any time you'd normally be able to in any other game.  It doesn't take up an inventory slot or an ability bar slot, either.  It's something you're going to be using a lot, just because of the nature of the genre, but instead of being dicks about it like in most similar games, they acknowledge it and just made it a built in feature like the replenishing warp scrolls in AVWW.  If everyone's always going to be lugging them around with them at all times anyway, you really might as well...

[x4000]

Generally speaking:

1. Yes, we don't really expect you to ever have to craft warp scrolls.  Having 4 of them now is even more of a disincentive for you to ever have to, which is great because there should be much more exciting stuff for you to use that purple dust on and just basic maneuvering around shouldn't be a factor there.

2. The reason we provide the ability to craft more is so that you can go on a really extended multi-hop trek if you really want to.  Hey, options are good.

3. On the surface it makes a lot of sense to have two separate inventory items for the illari ones and the non-illari ones, and I'm mildly on the fence on that, but then you wind up with two inventory slots burned (out of 100, but still) and players constantly asking what they are for, and so on.  Potentially we could make it Warp Potions that the illari give you, and even that you find scattered randomly about like other potions (but with much lower frequency).  And then the scrolls are the counterpoint to that.  Actually, THAT I really like.

[zebramatt]

I'm for it, for sure.

[Tayrtahn]

I kind of have mixed feelings.  It does make crafting your own less appealing, I guess, but I sort of resent having to craft my own in the first place.  The only reason I would ever craft my own is because I can't use a single scroll to teleport in/out of a cave multiple levels deep, because it's separated into multiple levels for the sake of the dungeon map not being 150k pixels tall and so it has clear delineations for where the enemies become tougher.

Um, you can just press Period and select the lowest dungeon to warp to.

If that actually works to warp to different dungeon segments (as opposed to different rooms within the same segment), that's very handy.  Would you believe that I had no idea you could do that, despite playing since 0.401 in the alpha, because I never actually use the region map, just the dungeon map?  It won't work with the period or comma keys or anything like that, though.  I remapped those before I even started playing.  What good do keys on the opposite side of the keyboard do me?  Heh.

It took me a while to discover this myself!

Previously, I was quite frustrated that I only got two scrolls per trip, as it usually took both scrolls just to get out of a region - one to warp to the dungeon entrance and another to warp to the outermost surface chunk. Once I figured out how to use the region map when warping, the limit of two scrolls stopped being an issue - one scroll takes me right back to wherever I was in the dungeon system, and the other takes me right back to the exit on the surface.

It might be a good idea to explain this somehow in the game, or make it more visually obvious that you can do it!

[mithrandi]

1. Yes, we don't really expect you to ever have to craft warp scrolls.  Having 4 of them now is even more of a disincentive for you to ever have to, which is great because there should be much more exciting stuff for you to use that purple dust on and just basic maneuvering around shouldn't be a factor there.

*looks at the 222 warp scrolls in his inventory*

Uhm.

Well.

I like warping

[keith.lamothe]

Warp Potions

Stuff that when you drink it you wind up somewhere else without knowing how you got there.

Hmm.

[Nalgas]

Warp Potions

Stuff that when you drink it you wind up somewhere else without knowing how you got there.

I think I don't remember having one of those before...

[zebramatt]

Warp Potions

Stuff that when you drink it you wind up somewhere else without knowing how you got there.

Hmm.

Mmmm... I might have a bottle of that in the fridge, actually.

[Terraziel]

Town portal scrolls have always been about, "Oh, my inventory is getting full - best offload some stuff!" or, "My, my, I'm running low on x - best nip back and get some more!"

both of which of course translate to "I need to go to town and walking is boring". Town portal scrolls exist so that you don't have to walk back and forth when you wish to go back to base. why you wish to do so is incidental

Warp scrolls are much worse already by allowing you to select to go anywhere in a level to anywhere
As it stands, perhaps I am wandering through a very deep dungeon, it can be as deep as it wants and as long as I have one warp scroll I can instantly (for all intents and purposes) go back to base, get two more and then warp to where ever I wished to be, and still be left one with scroll and able to repeat the process ad nauseam.

By increasing the number you are essentially giving people ones to waste as at some point you are going to have to go back to base to get more anyway, my argument is that if you wish extra ones you craft them

That said I'd have no issue with the free and craftable ones being distinct things.

Edit Without being an edit (response to posts after i started writing):

I sort of disagree, how ever futilely with, x4000 in that warp scrolls are actually exceptionally useful and not really a waste of dust, especially as I seem to end up with lots of low level dust sitting around in my inventory, and with warp scrolls having only one level its a pretty good return.

[BobTheJanitor]

Warp Potions

Stuff that when you drink it you wind up somewhere else without knowing how you got there.

Hmm.

Ahh, college memories.

Although warp potions sounds fine, I think the point is that whatever the item is, it should only be retrievable from the guardian stone and nowhere else. If you can find them out in the world, you end up in the same situation as we have at the moment trying to decide 'do I use all of these and go fill up on more, or do I conserve them for when I really need one?'. The whole point of making it a separate item would be that everyone would always only fill up on [guardian stone warp token] at the guardian stone every time they walk in and out of their settlement. I suppose if it was rare enough to find one of these potions in the wild, it wouldn't be a problem, but if they are fairly common than it brings us back to the same situation with different name tags.

[x4000]

Warp Potions

Stuff that when you drink it you wind up somewhere else without knowing how you got there.

Hmm.

Ahh, college memories.

Although warp potions sounds fine, I think the point is that whatever the item is, it should only be retrievable from the guardian stone and nowhere else. If you can find them out in the world, you end up in the same situation as we have at the moment trying to decide 'do I use all of these and go fill up on more, or do I conserve them for when I really need one?'. The whole point of making it a separate item would be that everyone would always only fill up on [guardian stone warp token] at the guardian stone every time they walk in and out of their settlement. I suppose if it was rare enough to find one of these potions in the wild, it wouldn't be a problem, but if they are fairly common than it brings us back to the same situation with different name tags.

That's a good point.  I was planning to make it super rare, anyhow (like a 1/100 chance but it could be even rarer).

In terms of the warp scrolls being usable to go to any other dungeon... I'll have to see how I can make that more clear.  Tooltips in at least two spots already say that.

[zebramatt]

Warp Potions

Stuff that when you drink it you wind up somewhere else without knowing how you got there.

Hmm.

Ahh, college memories.

Although warp potions sounds fine, I think the point is that whatever the item is, it should only be retrievable from the guardian stone and nowhere else. If you can find them out in the world, you end up in the same situation as we have at the moment trying to decide 'do I use all of these and go fill up on more, or do I conserve them for when I really need one?'. The whole point of making it a separate item would be that everyone would always only fill up on [guardian stone warp token] at the guardian stone every time they walk in and out of their settlement. I suppose if it was rare enough to find one of these potions in the wild, it wouldn't be a problem, but if they are fairly common than it brings us back to the same situation with different name tags.

I think you hit the nail on the head, actually. Just need to make warp potions found in the wild pretty rare. Then if you happen to have more'n four, bonus, but you've no compulsion to go looking for them.

Ninja!

Also, at the moment the issue is about not wasting something you found to make something you can get for free. If you get a warp potion for free out in the world, you can't do anything with it but use it - so there's not the same element of binary choice.