About spell diversity

[Misery]

So, this was something I wanted to bring up here..... spell diversity.


I dont mean the selection of spells... there's a pretty good number of them, and they're all different.    I mean, instead, the idea of encouraging the player to USE more of them.   As opposed to just picking 2 spells and always using just those.

I personally find that the game is more fun this way, and also that the updated mechanics (ingredient searching, missions-for-spells, stuff like that) all is tailored to the idea of the player grabbing/using lots of different spells.

Now, part of this is I think some spells are a little OP, or just too easy to use.... Ball Lightning, for instance.   Many things arent hard to take out by JUST firing that at them.  Light Orb is another one that's similar.   But I think all of the "straight shot" spells fall into this category at least somewhat.

Not to mention, some spells are a little..... well, "obtuse" may be the right word.   The sort of thing where it's difficult to figure out what they're even FOR.   I've been using Summon Tornado alot lately, after finding some genuine practical uses for it.... but it took quite awhile for me to figure that out.   It seems that quite a number of spells are this way (Gold boomerang for example.... I really just cant find a good use for this one);  and the straight-shot spells being so easy to work with does not encourage the player to experiment with the funkier ones, which just further restricts their use.

And some of the game mechanics do break down at least a bit, if you're not using a wide variety of these.   The ingredients, for example.  Some players are going to find that certain ingredients are COMPLETELY useless to them, aside from unlocking a couple of the "craft only" spells.   Look at Charred Amber, for example.   Charred Amber is used in:  Gold Boomerang, Ride the Lightning, Lightning Rocket, Storm Fist, and Summon Tornado.   For most players, most of the time..... this ingredient is not going to be of any use.   You need it to unlock Ride the Lightning/Lightning Rocket, but you need this only once;  Gold Boomerang is so funky that it's currently pretty useless, so dont need it for that.... Storm Fist isnt really meant as an attack;  it's used for propulsion, and doesnt really need to be upgraded once gotten; and Tornado is another rather odd spell that many players arent going to know what to do with.   For ME, specifically, I still need this ingredient since I am indeed using Tornado alot.   But for most players..... after unlocking those couple of spells exactly ONCE, finding this ingredient afterwards is gonna be like finding more wood platforms.... you just dont NEED it.     The fewer spells the player uses, the more this is the case.    This affects world-map missions as well.   Less spells, means less desire to actually DO those.    Same with the dispatch system.... it's less and less useful as you need less and less types of ingredients.

Also, as someone else in a different topic pointed out.... the game really does seem at it's best when you have a BUNCH of goals to go after at any one time.    I use alot of different spells, so at each "level", I'm gonna have a big pile of different goals I want to go after, some of which may change depending on the RNG.   This, to me, is interesting and fun.   But for someone that is only using 2-3 straight shot spells and a shield, this is very much not going to be the case.   Heck, with the auto-levelup of the rarer spell gems, it can be like, well, beat one lieutenant, and BAM all 4 of your spells level up because they were all rare types and they're the only things you use..... now you're instantly ready to fight the NEXT lieutenant.  Thus the game's pacing falters.


So, this to me is a bit of an issue currently.... I thought I'd make a topic and bring this up, and see if we cant get some suggestions going here, and I wouldnt mind seeing what the devs have to say about it too.    What can be done to encourage the player to use more than just a few spells?


EDIT:  Also, I dont mean that any spells need replacing or anything like that.   Moreso working with what already is there, making them more desirable.

[eRe4s3r]

I think what the erratic non-direct go-through-stuff spells need is a sort of combo damage system, first hit is normal damage (100%) but second and third (and so on) hits scale UP (150%/200%/300%/400%/500%). That way stuff like boomerang would become an absolutely awesome specialty spell.

or maybe a sort of stun, knockbar, poision or otherwise ability. Maybe even charm (enemies don't attack)

I always wondered why spells in AVWW don't have secondary effects

[BobTheJanitor]

Some spell modifiers do things like that. I know I've seen a slow modifier on some spells, I think. And the 40% vulnerability to elemental type is awesome, if you get it on a spell of that same type at least. But I agree that spells with a damage over time component would be interesting. Either something with a little DOT, like an extra 10% damage (that hopefully stacks, otherwise it would be useless except on very slow firing spells) or maybe even something with a huge DOT component that cuts the main damage down to compensate. That could lead to some alternate hit and run play styles.

On the main topic, though, I do agree that spells leveling up would definitely lead to stagnation (I didn't even know they did that). Take a page from Borderlands and its eleventy-billion guns. If a spell is really good and has some sort of great modifier you'll probably keep it for a long time regardless of how strong it is. But otherwise you'll keep upgrading as you find new things and tossing out the old spells, which is a good thing. People like a feeling of progression. Maybe spell leveling shouldn't be so in-your-face. Right now the game clearly points out when your spells are under-leveled with the numbers on the spells, and the 'what do I do' Ilari telling you to go get higher level spells now now now. Maybe that should go away and the player should just compare one spell to the next on their own and make their own judgments. Like in Borderlands, I found a pistol that was moderately good, but had unlimited ammo. It was quickly surpassed in damage by many other guns that I found later, but you better believe I kept that gun around for pretty much the rest of the game. Even when it was terribly weak, it was still useful to whip out in a pinch when I ran out of other ammo. If a spell in AVWW could spawn with a very rare modifier of zero mana usage, it would become a permanent keeper, even though you would keep upgrading other spells and using them most of the time.

So yeah, I think an interesting variety of sidegrade modifiers to spells, and spells not leveling up, and perhaps spell levels being less prominent (also allowing a little wiggle room in the spells that drop for you, some can be stronger or weaker in various ways if they don't have to match some exact level rule) would lead to more interesting gameplay.

[TechSY730]

Don't have that much of an opinion on this. However, I do agree that
1. There is still more balance work needed on spells
2. The trickier a spell is to use (due to "funkiness" or whatever), the more awesome it has to be to compensate to make it worth learning (though this has to be done in moderation, or else at high-level play, the simpler spells will fall behind)
3. I'm not sure if removing auto-leveling all-together is a good idea, but someone suggested that the amount of auto-leveling is done is reduced by 1 (basiclly, this would stop uncommon spells from auto-leveling, only rare and above would, and even rare would only auto-level once, and epic only twice. See http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11116.msg110750.html#msg110750 for the original idea)
4. More spell modifiers is always nice, including awesome but very rare ones that make you want to keep the spell even if it falls behind in the other stats, like Borderlands had.


Semi-related, I do feel like the reward structure/probability distribution is mostly geared towards new players/new worlds. This is fine, as it helps you get started up faster, but then it becomes annoying later on, because then you start getting handed stuff you don't need nearly as much, and this indirectly, makes it hard to get stuff you need to progress past the mid-game.

Maybe probability distributions and eligible rewards from different types of missions, stash rooms, and caves should shift some as you go up in level and continent, to reflect that now character building is less of a priority and "world" and settlement building becomes more important. (This might include having map missions give non-spell rewards with slightly higher and higher chances of non-spell rewards as you go up in level, though even at minimum probability, spells should still be relatively common reward for map missions)

[Misery]

I think what the erratic non-direct go-through-stuff spells need is a sort of combo damage system, first hit is normal damage (100%) but second and third (and so on) hits scale UP (150%/200%/300%/400%/500%). That way stuff like boomerang would become an absolutely awesome specialty spell.

or maybe a sort of stun, knockbar, poision or otherwise ability. Maybe even charm (enemies don't attack)

I always wondered why spells in AVWW don't have secondary effects

I very much agree with this.    I know some spell modifiers can produce status effects..... such as -haste or -speed, both of which can be very useful depending on what you're fighting.... but there are only a couple of spells that have this BUILT IN.   These would be Flamethrower and Geyser, and those two are INTERESTING, due to their effects..... they have all sorts of possible uses; and also Flameout, which can light things on fire in the same way that fire/flame bats do.   But alot of the usual RPG-ish effects arent really there.... there's no poison, no direct slow/stop, no confuse/charm..... stuff like that;  and I bet the devs here could think up all SORTS of interesting status stuff, being as creative as they are.     It wouldnt be the easiest thing to balance, but it'd be doable, and of course they have all of us to test it for them.

But yeah, if something like, say, Gold Boomerang had a good chance of completely locking an enemy in place for a time, I'd immediately find it MUCH more useful.   It'd still be a difficult spell to use, but against the right foes (EAGLES.   Or Raptors, but bear traps work well on them already) it'd be super useful.    Stuff like that.   Or if Splashback, perhaps, also caused a slowing effect, I'd probably actually USE that one (currently it's one I kinda ignore).

Now, I do think some of these spells are ALREADY useful.... like Tornado..... but, they're way too hard to LEARN.   The game does not make it at all obvious as to what a good use for them is.

I also wonder if altering some of the ways that modifiers work might help..... I notice that actual base damage/mana/recharge times of spells really dont vary all that much, even among different rarities.   Altering this fact might help, perhaps.   If I were to get to a new level, grab Ball Lightning, and look at it's stats and find that, well, crap, it gave me a very weak version of it this time..... but I might then look at Fireball (which I dont use much), and it gave me a strong version this time (weak/strong BEFORE modifiers), I might use that for a time;  the RNG could actually cause me to alter my build to compensate at times, which could be very useful.   Some of the modifiers already do that.....  but overpowered spells like Ball Lightning still remain overpowered nonetheless.   Just an idea, that one.

Don't have that much of an opinion on this. However, I do agree that
1. There is still more balance work needed on spells
2. The trickier a spell is to use (due to "funkiness" or whatever), the more awesome it has to be to compensate to make it worth learning (though this has to be done in moderation, or else at high-level play, the simpler spells will fall behind)
3. I'm not sure if removing auto-leveling all-together is a good idea, but someone suggested that the amount of auto-leveling is done is reduced by 1 (basiclly, this would stop uncommon spells from auto-leveling, only rare and above would, and even rare would only auto-level once, and epic only twice. See http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11116.msg110750.html#msg110750 for the original idea)
4. More spell modifiers is always nice, including awesome but very rare ones that make you want to keep the spell even if it falls behind in the other stats, like Borderlands had.

Semi-related, I do feel like the reward structure/probability distribution is mostly geared towards new players/new worlds. This is fine, as it helps you get started up faster, but then it becomes annoying later on, because then you start getting handed stuff you don't need nearly as much, and this indirectly, makes it hard to get stuff you need to progress past the mid-game.

Maybe probability distributions and eligible rewards from different types of missions, stash rooms, and caves should shift some as you go up in level and continent, to reflect that now character building is less of a priority and "world" and settlement building becomes more important. (This might include having map missions give non-spell rewards with slightly higher and higher chances of non-spell rewards as you go up in level, though even at minimum probability, spells should still be relatively common reward for map missions)

Aye, I agree.  In particular, the bit that the level-up counts should all be lowered by one;  definitely think Uncommons shouldnt level up at all.    And I agree with the stuff you said about the modifiers, occaisionally finding rare awesome ones..... even on common spells..... would be neat/fun.

[Mick]

I think part of the problem is that so many of the spells are simply some form of spammable, or semi-spammable, direct damage. No player needs to have more than 2-3 direct damage spells, and they are going to settle quickly with the ones that are least awkward to use.

I don't really know what a solution for this is though, because I'm not sure I'd like being forced into having to juggle too many spells at a time. I think I'd be more inclined to use spells beyond my spammables if they had high-cooldowns and huge effects.

[Ulrox]

Taking inspiration from castlevania once again. (duh ) I personally love spells like storm dash that requires me to double click and then being able to go a certain direction. In symphony of the night you have 6-7 spells which can be cast by doing combinations of movements and then using the attack button. Now this game doesn't use a gamepad, and my experience of using a keyboard while playing castlevania symphony of the night makes it very hard to use spells like this but not undoable. Having more spells like storm dash which FORCES you to do combinations to unleash powerful spells would also make high mana charecters much more viable and interesting/skillbased, and it can save room on your hotkeybar which is another reason why I'm not using as many spells as I would like. (not enough room for them ) This is a big change though so I guess more players would need to agree with me on this one.

[TechSY730]

I think I'd be more inclined to use spells beyond my spammables if they had high-cooldowns and huge effects.

Yea, something Chris has said he would like to expand on is the selection of "super" spells, spells with a low ROF, high mana cost, but awesome damage/effects.

I think what the erratic non-direct go-through-stuff spells need is a sort of combo damage system, first hit is normal damage (100%) but second and third (and so on) hits scale UP (150%/200%/300%/400%/500%). That way stuff like boomerang would become an absolutely awesome specialty spell.

or maybe a sort of stun, knockbar, poision or otherwise ability. Maybe even charm (enemies don't attack)

I always wondered why spells in AVWW don't have secondary effects

I very much agree with this.    I know some spell modifiers can produce status effects..... such as -haste or -speed, both of which can be very useful depending on what you're fighting.... but there are only a couple of spells that have this BUILT IN.   These would be Flamethrower and Geyser, and those two are INTERESTING, due to their effects..... they have all sorts of possible uses; and also Flameout, which can light things on fire in the same way that fire/flame bats do.   But alot of the usual RPG-ish effects arent really there.... there's no poison, no direct slow/stop, no confuse/charm..... stuff like that;  and I bet the devs here could think up all SORTS of interesting status stuff, being as creative as they are.     It wouldnt be the easiest thing to balance, but it'd be doable, and of course they have all of us to test it for them.

But yeah, if something like, say, Gold Boomerang had a good chance of completely locking an enemy in place for a time, I'd immediately find it MUCH more useful.   It'd still be a difficult spell to use, but against the right foes (EAGLES.   Or Raptors, but bear traps work well on them already) it'd be super useful.    Stuff like that.   Or if Splashback, perhaps, also caused a slowing effect, I'd probably actually USE that one (currently it's one I kinda ignore).

Of course, how could I forget about that. I really do think there needs to be some spells with "debuffs" or other odd effects as part of their base stats, rather than sometimes added on as a modifier.

[sarudak]

I think there should be some really powerful spells that have debuffs applied to your character as a cost. Like a really high damage spell that increases all damage done to your character by 100% for the next two minutes.

[Misery]

One thing that's occurred to me, relating to spell balance:

The balance of some of them actually seems BACKWARDS.

Consider Ball Lightning, VS Gold Boomerang.   Both are Air element spells.   Ball Lightning is very easy to use, it can slide, and it does pretty high damage.  Gold Boomerang is very hard to use due to it's low range, speed, and somewhat bizarre way of firing..... and it does pretty low damage.    This...... is backwards.   Being that Boomerang is so freaking hard to use, it should hit HARD.  And this seems to be the case with all of the straight-shot spells.   They're all a bit too strong, considering their ease of use, compared to much harder to use spells that arent nearly as effective.

Now, there are some exceptions.... Rockslide, Meteor... er..... I forget what it's called..... and Flameout are all stupid-powerful if used right, albeit with a massive cost.   That's pretty much what they should be.   I'm not saying spells like Boomerang should be THAT powerful.... but they should be stronger than the easy-to-use straight shot spells.    This alone might encourage more use of spells beyond JUST those.

Just another balance issue I randomly noticed.  Might be worth thinking about.

[LayZboy]

Now, there are some exceptions.... Rockslide, Meteor... er..... I forget what it's called..... and Flameout are all stupid-powerful if used right, albeit with a massive cost.   That's pretty much what they should be.   I'm not saying spells like Boomerang should be THAT powerful.... but they should be stronger than the easy-to-use straight shot spells.    This alone might encourage more use of spells beyond JUST those.

Just another balance issue I randomly noticed.  Might be worth thinking about.

I think one of the problems is why go through the effort and risk of using these spells when the "easy" ones can still kill monsters just as fast with no trouble? right now I just run through a map, holding fireball in whatever direction, and adjusting aim when monsters aren't dead on sight. There is no point in buffing the other spells if other ones do the same job much easier.

Maybe monsters should have more HP or spells should be weaker or something.

[Mánagarmr]

I think what the erratic non-direct go-through-stuff spells need is a sort of combo damage system, first hit is normal damage (100%) but second and third (and so on) hits scale UP (150%/200%/300%/400%/500%). That way stuff like boomerang would become an absolutely awesome specialty spell.

or maybe a sort of stun, knockbar, poision or otherwise ability. Maybe even charm (enemies don't attack)

I always wondered why spells in AVWW don't have secondary effects

This is not a bad idea. Debuffs are fun, but they generally need to be really noticable in such a fast paced game. I mean, mobs rarely live beyond the second (or even first) shot, so debuffs might be a moot point.

[Misery]

I think one of the problems is why go through the effort and risk of using these spells when the "easy" ones can still kill monsters just as fast with no trouble? right now I just run through a map, holding fireball in whatever direction, and adjusting aim when monsters aren't dead on sight. There is no point in buffing the other spells if other ones do the same job much easier.

Maybe monsters should have more HP or spells should be weaker or something.

Yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking.   The straight-shot spells could do with a good whack from the ol' Nerf bat.

I dunno what difficulty you're on, but if you can run around at a high difficulty and JUST use ONE spell to clobber everything (particularly if it's defeating everything QUICKLY)..... then something is really off.  It sounds like a huge balance problem.

I havent noticed it myself, but I'm also specifically making a point of not abusing certain things (not using shields currently, for example) for the sake of keeping it interesting.  The shields are another thing that need a hit with the Nerf bat.   Though, considering just how powerful the shields are, maybe "Nerf Nuke" would be more appropriate.

This is not a bad idea. Debuffs are fun, but they generally need to be really noticable in such a fast paced game. I mean, mobs rarely live beyond the second (or even first) shot, so debuffs might be a moot point.

Aye, that as well.

They do need to be pretty heavy to be of much use.   Alot of RPGs seem to get this one wrong, and they'll have all sorts of crazy debuffs, but they end up being pointless, and only DPS matters (which is boring).   So far, some of the debuff-ish effects that can appear on spells right now are actually pretty useful, though that's against larger things that take many hits.

[Mánagarmr]

Well, I was also thinking about bosses in particular, but then the debuffs feel sort of niche. If they only work against 10% of the stuff in the game they feel, yet again, sort of moot.

[Misery]

Well, I was also thinking about bosses in particular, but then the debuffs feel sort of niche. If they only work against 10% of the stuff in the game they feel, yet again, sort of moot.

That does bring up an interesting point.

Bosses are one of the biggest reasons to use more kinds of spells, and to go for spells with certain effects..... but with the changes in the mission system and everything, you dont actually get into as many boss battles now as before.   Not even remotely close to as many.

The fact that caves arent very important isnt helping;  at least in those, you *will* run into bosses pretty often.   But when you're running around surface chunks and buildings..... there are hardly any of them.    Which is a shame, really, because this game does boss encounters pretty darn well.

I do think that searching buildings in particular should actually have boss encounters really be there, as opposed to just every now and then coming across ONE boss room, in a section of the building that you dont actually have any reason to go to.   Having them appear sometimes in surface chunks would be nice too.