Author Topic: Enchant containers vs EXP containers  (Read 1629 times)

Offline KDR_11k

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 904
Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« on: March 03, 2012, 11:37:33 am »
Back when experience containers were introduced they were intended as a minor, optional reward for 100% exploration of rooms (especially mazes) that wouldn't replace the main sources of experience. Now they're enchant containers, they're the only source of combat enchantments and the enchantments have become a major part of the game. But enchant containers still spawn in the old patterns, requiring rather tedious exploration if you want to build up a decent library of enchants.

I'd suggest that the current containers should be relegated to a secondary role again and that the main income of enchantment progress should be from more entertaining actions. What do other people think about that?

Offline Terraziel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 314
Re: Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 11:51:50 am »
I understand the sentiment, but...

Personally, even before the change to the current system I had what I would consider a fairly healthy stock of enchants, without trying to get them in any real way.

The amount you can get easily whilst doing missions (secret or otherwise) is a pretty good, with the new system essentially making enchants cheaper I don't think you will ever be wanting for enchants.

at best I would suggest spawning small amounts of containers in a wider variety of areas, one to a cave room sort of levels, but not really.

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 12:47:42 pm »
what was the reason behind removing exp system actually? I never played the "old" versions, but I think I would have liked the exp system. I believe chris once said that you could go lvl up till a nearly endless lvl and I would have enjoyed that a lot (monsters giving experience points and such) but I understand that's no longer the case.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 12:52:24 pm »
The infinity of it was part of its downfall.  Either it's a treadmill where your numbers always have the same relationship to enemy numbers (or you fall behind and get crushed or get ahead and nothing's a challenge), or it gets more and more unbalanced as you go up.

The "Unlocks" system does basically everything that was good about the xp/level system in terms of gradual unfolding of content without those issues :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 01:07:37 pm »
In terms of the core query here: I don't think a shift needs to be made with regard to enchant containers.  Why?  Because they also do seed in stash rooms.  And you'll pick them up naturally as you're busy doing other things (missions, etc), too.  They are like coins in mario, they are all over the place.  If you want to go somewhere specific and grind them, then you can -- hooray.  But if you don't, the game doesn't force you, and you'll still have a healthy dose of them in no time.

In short, I think it works as well as coins do in mario, or any other sort of minor collectible sort of thing that leads to a major reward.  Unless you are the sort who never almost dies in mario (ahem), collecting coins could be considered semi-optional at best, because those are your primary means to getting 1ups unless you know some specific way to grind 1ups like the turtle-on-stairs trick in SMB1, for instance.  And if you know (and can execute) that trick, you probably already don't need the lives.

I could not be happier with how it's playing out at the moment, with regards to enchant rates and how frequent you get the containers, to be perfectly honest.  It's not the core focus of the game, but it's always something that is there, and it's exciting when you get more, and you can choose to accelerate that process or not.  It serves much the same sort of psychological role as EXP does in many other games, without actually being EXP.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 01:21:24 pm »
allright, makes sense. How does this effect the enemy and player stats? I haven't gotten out of the first continent yet, but so far it seems Tier 5 is max. Will that change in the future? I like to increase my chars stats non-stop (besides enchants) regardless of enemies increasing their stats as well.

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 01:25:38 pm »
allright, makes sense. How does this effect the enemy and player stats? I haven't gotten out of the first continent yet, but so far it seems Tier 5 is max. Will that change in the future? I like to increase my chars stats non-stop (besides enchants) regardless of enemies increasing their stats as well.

There are no stats increases -- this is not an RPG in any way, shape, or form. ;)  Each continent is like its own "game within a game."  Going to a new continent is kind of like getting "New Game +" in a lot of other titles.  Enemies all go back to tier 1, all your spells that you learned don't work on the new continent, etc.  But you do get to keep all your enchants and unlockables progress, and all the nastier enemies that you've unlocked (plus all the new terrain types and whatever else) still hang around.  So there is some stat inflation through enchants on your side, and enemy unlocks on the monster side, but that's it.

In terms of the upgrade stones, those are of course another way in which to build yourself up, but those are capped at 10 and disappear when you die.  In terms of progression mechanics, this is 100% an adventure game, in the sense of Zelda or Metroid or something, not an RPG like Diablo or Final Fantasy or similar.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline zoutzakje

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,052
  • Crosshatch Conqueror
Re: Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2012, 02:19:42 pm »
ah I see. I was under the impression that playable characters would also grow stronger as the tier increases (allowing for higher upgrades with upgrade stones), hence my confusion. Still a lot to learn :D
I have thoroughly enjoyed zelda and metroid games (in fact, I still am) so this should be entertaining. I'm always a fan of increasing my character's stats, but enchants should do just fine (thousands of different attribute combinations you say? looks like I got some collecting to do).

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: Enchant containers vs EXP containers
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2012, 02:21:34 pm »
Cheers!
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!