A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture

[superking]

just dropping in to say, I completed IWBTG on Hard 

[keith.lamothe]

just dropping in to say, I completed IWBTG on Hard 

I'll keep that in mind in case I ever see you commenting on a bit of AI behavior or unit balance as being disadvantageous to the player

(just kidding... mostly)

[x4000]

I've heard of spelunky, and read an article about how they dis the lighting on their cave walls using clever techiques, but that's about the extent of it. I think I knew it was procedural, but I had no idea it was permadeath. AVWW isn't going to be hard in the same sense as that game; it's more intended to be hard like... I guess like simcity, sort of. That's also a bad example, so scratch that. Here's he ways in which AVWW is hard:

1. If you want to go into lava areas, it will kill you like a platformer, but this is an optional side thing.

2. If you want to go into higher-level regions earlier than your civ level, this is hard and is a way you can tune the difficulty to your liking. The rewards increase with the increased region level, but you'll get there in due time if you just play at your level (or, even slower but still eventually if you play below your civ level, to tone the difficulty down).

3. If you just act rashly and don't properly plan expeditions, then you're likely to be eaten alive. So this emphasis forward thinking, not really action style skill, and is regardless of the region levels you play in, but particularly augmented by playing above your civ level.

4. If you build clever and optimal equipment loadouts for your play style and the goals you are trying to achieve at the time, you will enable yourself to do more. So in this sense that's kind of the same thing that ai war emphasizes throughout it's play.

5. Affecting overall changes in the world is hard in the sense that there is no "push this to win" button. You have to look at what is there and what you want to happen, and then figuring out a long range plan to make that work with the least amount of effort on your part. That's the part that makes me think of simcity a little, although it's equally like ai war I guess. If you want to take out an overlord, you have to go through sort of a campaign of preparation and attack, rather than just showing up at his keep at the appointed time or whatever. So this is more of a mentally hard thing... but if you're lazy or don't want to be thoughtful about it, you could just keep leveling and getting more equipment until you are so overpowered that less strategy is needed with the overlord. But I think the strategy minded will take pleasure in figuring out how to do hints efficiently, rather than just taking the slower, blender route.

Anyway, all of that has really vey little in common with spelunky from what I can tell. Or terraria... or minecraft... Anyway, it's early days yet with overlords and a lot could change, but that's what we're aiming at!

[keith.lamothe]

1. If you want to go into lava areas, it will kill you like a platformer, but this is an optional side thing.

Yea, this is probably the biggest difference from all JRPGs ever: if you want to stay alive, stay away from the volcano!

[Cyborg]

So this is more of a mentally hard thing... but if you're lazy or don't want to be thoughtful about it, you could just keep leveling and getting more equipment until you are so overpowered that less strategy is needed with the overlord. But I think the strategy minded will take pleasure in figuring out how to do hints efficiently, rather than just taking the slower, blender route.

Final fantasy boss too hard? Just get Knights of the Round by breeding chocobos.

Kind of like that?

(and yes, I did that. I bought an Italian sub and basically had two buttons to press for about 15 min. I remember it vividly.)

[Gallant Dragon]

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=72

Speaking of breeding Chocobos...

[x4000]

I actually never played FF7 to completion, as I kind of lost interest after Aerith died.  I knew that was coming and wanted to see what the fuss was all about, but it felt like the compelling aspects of the game had petered out by then for me.  I was always more of a FF6 guy, anyway -- beat that completely half a dozen times at least.  The only FF game that I've completed since 6 was actually FFX, although I got pretty far in FFXII as well.

Wow, tangent on my FF tastes.   Anyway, so I don't know specifically about Knights of the Round and Breeding Chocobos, but I get the gist.

That's not really what I meant, but you could take it to that extreme if you wanted.  I was more thinking of when you can face Kefka in his final tower in FF6, as a better example.  Basically as soon as you get the second airship in the WoR you can make a go at it, but it will be hard as heck.  Seems like I recall level 29ish is about average for getting to the WoR, but since you can't level up all characters evenly and you need three competent for the final areas, that complicates the decision of when to attack Kefka. 

I've beaten FF6 with still having some characters in the low 30s on levels, and just a quartet at level 42, and managed to win -- but it was brutal, and required things like the vanish/xzone trick.  In AVWW, this would be like being under-leveled for an overlord, but going in anyway -- expect some bloodshed on your part, but if you're very good and have some clever tricks, you can probably do it.

On the other hand, the more "standard" way to win that game is to have all your characters in the 40s to 50s on levels, which is about what you'll have if you do most of the side quests and get all 12 of the characters back and use them in a sliding rotation.  Like in AVWW, this would wind up with you having a tough fight, but nothing that is overwhelming to the point of requiring tricks.

Of course if you're super completionist on FF6 and getting lots and lots of the smaller side things, including the best equipment that you wind up having to really put in some battle time for, then you might have all your characters something like level 60+ when you go to fight Kefka.  If you do, then the fight is pretty easy, but not exactly two-button easy.

And of course there is the super extreme crazy route of getting to level 99 where you can just have Cyan with the gengi gloves and that other relic that I'm drawing a blank on, so that he does 8 hits with each attack, all for max damage, and Kefka goes down in like three rounds of that.  To me, it sounds like the Knights of the Round thing falls more in this category, which is certainly possible in most RPG-inspired games, but it's not what 99% of players would ever do.

[Cyborg]

I actually never played FF7 to completion, as I kind of lost interest after Aerith died.  I knew that was coming and wanted to see what the fuss was all about, but it felt like the compelling aspects of the game had petered out by then for me.  I was always more of a FF6 guy, anyway -- beat that completely half a dozen times at least.  The only FF game that I've completed since 6 was actually FFX, although I got pretty far in FFXII as well.

I agree, ff6 was my favorite of all time ( I played it on the super Nintendo when it was marked as 3). The story is fantastic, and if nothing else has the best character focus and development of any entry in the series. That was a villain, and to this day I haven't found a better one, including Batman villains. I have beat the game multiple times using the ways that you mentioned, although I never liked Ragnarok as a sword nor "Mr. Thou, " even acknowledging they were overpowered.

That being said, I think you missed out on ff7 because it does have a good story. Aerith dying has been a little bit more resolved with a movie that came out ( advent children), but it did turn a lot of people off. The rest of the story is a wild toad ride; the hidden characters, the plot twists, and Sephiroth going berserk are all worth the price of admission.

I'm guessing your overlords will be slightly less described, but I do look forward to seeing what you do with them to make the battles interesting and something that you cannot cheese without putting in a lot of work.

So if we breed skelebot Yellow with..hmm.

[x4000]

I agree, ff6 was my favorite of all time ( I played it on the super Nintendo when it was marked as 3). The story is fantastic, and if nothing else has the best character focus and development of any entry in the series. That was a villain, and to this day I haven't found a better one, including Batman villains.

Couldn't agree more on all counts.  And yeah, I still have my III-marked SNES cartridge, though I got into the habit of calling it FF6 back when everyone was like "what happened to 4, 5, and 6!?!" at the launch of 7.

I have beat the game multiple times using the ways that you mentioned, although I never liked Ragnarok as a sword nor "Mr. Thou, " even acknowledging they were overpowered.

Yeah, I never really did much with Ragnarok as a sword.  I couldn't stand the idea of not getting all the Espers just so that I'd have a stupid sword.   I loved playing with Cyan because he was one of my favorite characters -- to that end I'd always have Celes in the lead (despite never using Runic), and then Edgar, Sabin, and Cyan.  Locke was also a good character, but never made the cut to my top 4.

That being said, I think you missed out on ff7 because it does have a good story. Aerith dying has been a little bit more resolved with a movie that came out ( advent children), but it did turn a lot of people off. The rest of the story is a wild toad ride; the hidden characters, the plot twists, and Sephiroth going berserk are all worth the price of admission.

I did enjoy the story and such pretty well, and I actually have advent children and enjoyed that.  At some point I should play the game again, but it was just not quite to my tastes all around.  I just never really connected with any of the characters to the degree I did with FF6 or Chrono Trigger.

I'm guessing your overlords will be slightly less described, but I do look forward to seeing what you do with them to make the battles interesting and something that you cannot cheese without putting in a lot of work.

I will say that one of the big foci is really going to be on their keep, rather than on the overlord himself.  There's a few things I can't talk about there without getting into some major spoilers, but there's good reason for this.  In a lot of respects, it's sort of a bit more like war than a boss fight, or that's the goal anyhow.  By the time you actually reach the overlord it's not like you've already won, but at least 90% of the job is done by then.  And a lot of blood and tears have been shed by that point.

So if we breed skelebot Yellow with..hmm.

Breeding robots!  What will they think of next...

[MaxAstro]

Like Cave and Touhou hard?  That stuff is totally beyond me, but anyone who can even keep up with what's going on on screen has my respect.

I've beaten Touhou Projects 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7 (though not the bonus levels) so yes, that hard. 

More on topic, AVWW is sounding better and better the more I hear about it.  Originally the shift from top-down to side-view was a big disconnect for me from what I thought the game was going to be, but I've heard enough to be convinced it was the right choice.  And drawing Zelda II as an inspiration also catches my attention; I'm one of the like three people on the planet who enjoyed Zelda II more than Zelda I.

I was also apparently completely insane as a seven-year-old because I managed to beat Dark Link without even knowing about the cheap stand-in-the-corner trick, a feat which to this day I can't duplicate. 

My one concern with the game is the same as my worry with all procedurally generated games: Eventually you've seen everything, and then it gets kind of samey.  But if AVWW has anything near the level of content AI Wars has, that will be a long, long, long ways out.

[x4000]

I'm one of the like three people on the planet who enjoyed Zelda II more than Zelda I.

Hello there!  It's wonderful to meet one of the other two of you!  We should have a convention, but I guess that would be kind of too few to bothering renting space.

I was also apparently completely insane as a seven-year-old because I managed to beat Dark Link without even knowing about the cheap stand-in-the-corner trick, a feat which to this day I can't duplicate. 

Good god, that is insane.

My one concern with the game is the same as my worry with all procedurally generated games: Eventually you've seen everything, and then it gets kind of samey.  But if AVWW has anything near the level of content AI Wars has, that will be a long, long, long ways out.

Right, that's inherent in anything procedural.  The thing about AI War, and about AVWW, though, is that we keep adding more stuff as well.  As with AI War, I hope to never make a sequel to AVWW.  It's all about free DLC and paid expansions for both, and for the same reasons: then your content is additive, and the worlds get incredibly huge and varied.  Doing new content for AI War is actually a lot harder than for AVWW because of the nature of a strategy game's balance versus and adventure game's balance, so we should be able to really make AI War look small by comparison to AVWW, long-term.  We'll see!

[Nalgas]

The only FF game that I've completed since 6 was actually FFX

FF6 is also my favorite, and FFX is the only one since 7 that I've completed, but FFX is actually my least favorite out of at least 4-10 and the one that finally got me to give up on the series.  I only played/finished it because my computer was broken that week, I'd run out of other games in the house to play, and I finally let my roommate talk me into playing his copy.  At least it was better than the time he tried to get me to play Dark Cloud.  Breakable weapons!  Which I ran out of in the first dungeon!  Argh!  Heh.

That being said, I think you missed out on ff7 because it does have a good story. Aerith dying has been a little bit more resolved with a movie that came out ( advent children), but it did turn a lot of people off. The rest of the story is a wild toad ride; the hidden characters, the plot twists, and Sephiroth going berserk are all worth the price of admission.

I kind of thought that the first time around, but in retrospect, Square really tries too hard most of the time.  They end up with these convoluted messes that are uniquely Japanese, uniquely Squaresoft/Squeenix, and uniquely nonsensical in their own special way, and I'm really kind of tired of it after all this time.  A lot of other stuff has gotten better over the years as translation budgets have improved and as the time and energy put in by the original team has increased, but Squeenix games (and tie-in movies like Advent Children, which I consider a crime against humanity) on average are worse about that than before, if anything.

Just because your story is hard to follow and has ridiculous concepts in it doesn't make it good.  Unless there's something really, really clever tying it together (there usually isn't), it just means you're a bad writer.  At least some of the games are enough fun to make up for it, both then and now (I thought The Last Remnant was criminally underrated, the non-broken PC version, at least).

I've beaten Touhou Projects 2, 4, 5, 6, and 7 (though not the bonus levels) so yes, that hard. 

Well then, a winner is you, I suppose.  I salute you.  Heh.

[keith.lamothe]

I kind of thought that the first time around, but in retrospect, Square really tries too hard most of the time.  They end up with these convoluted messes that are uniquely Japanese, uniquely Squaresoft/Squeenix, and uniquely nonsensical in their own special way, and I'm really kind of tired of it after all this time.

Yea, I had a hard time following 7, 8, and 9's story.  10 was easier to follow, I actually really liked it.  There was no 11.  12 had a much easier to follow story for me.

I suggest Valkyrie Profile (the original for the PSX, preferably, but the PSP one isn't bad either; the sequel is ok too though play the first one first) for an interesting Enix story.  Of course, you kinda have to get the "secret ending" branch to get to the real meat of it, but that's part of what makes it so much fun

[Nalgas]

10 was easier to follow, I actually really liked it.

It may have been easier to follow, but I thought it wasn't all that great.  I really liked the idea at the beginning, but the more of it they revealed, the stupider I thought it was compared to all the possibilities I'd considered on my own that they eliminated with each bit of new information.  Looking back at it years later, it's not that it's a bad idea for a story (I actually like it as a concept after knowing how it all fits together), but the way it was presented just bugs me.  The terrible, terrible voice acting didn't help its case, either.  Heh.

I suggest Valkyrie Profile

That's been one of those "maybe I'll get around to it one of these years" things for a while now.  I suppose it's as good an excuse as any to set up a PSX emulator on my desktop again.  It's a surprisingly frustrating experience trying to make a good rip of a PSX disc in OS X or get an emulator running with reasonable CPU use.  Pretty sad when you consider VGS ran Legend of Mana at full speed on a PowerBook with a 233MHz CPU, and my year-old MacBook nearly overheats trying to do the same thing and not even succeeding as well...

[Echo35]

I suggest Valkyrie Profile

That's been one of those "maybe I'll get around to it one of these years" things for a while now.  I suppose it's as good an excuse as any to set up a PSX emulator on my desktop again.  It's a surprisingly frustrating experience trying to make a good rip of a PSX disc in OS X or get an emulator running with reasonable CPU use.  Pretty sad when you consider VGS ran Legend of Mana at full speed on a PowerBook with a 233MHz CPU, and my year-old MacBook nearly overheats trying to do the same thing and not even succeeding as well...

Or you can, you know, BUY it Although the original is about $65, but you can get Lenneth (The remake) if you have a PSP for $9.