A Valley Without Wind's Switch To Side View -- The Big Picture

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I think your in a no-win scenario.  Or you could release both versions of the game and have an all-win/no-win scenario.  Or you could sorta-win, Idk, I'm making my brain explode trying to think about it. 

Really, I think those comments were unfortunately inevitable.  People complained about it one-way, then just complained about it under the pretense that your trying to copy another game's success (which I don't think you are).  Ultimately, you can't win them all.

King

[keith.lamothe]

AI War was also already finished, well reviewed, and well received by players who had logged dozens or more of hours on that game before it ever was seen at RPS.  So that might have something to do with it, too.

Yea, my feeling lately is that we could have saved an awful lot of grief by simply waiting until we had a playable demo to say word 1 about the actual game... but then we wouldn't have gotten a lot of feedback that has actually proven valuable, so I dunno.  And we certainly have the previous experience of no-PR-until-release with Tidalis, which didn't go so well.  No right answer, it seems, but always learning

[x4000]

I think your in a no-win scenario.

I figured that before we ever made this change.  Ultimately it will wash out, as those people who don't like the game won't buy it and may or may not complain about not liking it, and those that do like it will buy it and may or may not gush about liking it.  Same as with any other game released, period.

Really, I think those comments were unfortunately inevitable.

Yep, this was my feeling before we even switched to side view.  I've been shocked that youtube has (knock on wood) so far had 100% overall positive comments about the change, and the worst that's been said in these forums and on the blog has mostly been "I'm really not sure about this."  That's a really big improvement over "I hate this and that with great passion," which is what we got a good percentage of before.

People complained about it one-way, then just complained about it under the pretense that your trying to copy another game's success (which I don't think you are).  Ultimately, you can't win them all.

Oh, trust me, I know we can't win them all.  I actually expected more "aren't you ripping off Terraria?" comments, but there have been surprisingly few.  Seems the haters still feel they have enough ammunition with the art and our general intelligence without bringing that into play for the most part.

Yea, my feeling lately is that we could have saved an awful lot of grief by simply waiting until we had a playable demo to say word 1 about the actual game... but then we wouldn't have gotten a lot of feedback that has actually proven valuable, so I dunno.  And we certainly have the previous experience of no-PR-until-release with Tidalis, which didn't go so well.  No right answer, it seems, but always learning

We could definitely have saved an awful lot of grief, but I also think it would have ultimately been negative for the game.  Both from a development standpoint, as well as from a PR/visibility standpoint.  I think that the real "right answer" is to have enough money and studio popularity that you can develop in secret, then release a demo or the full game and worry about PR then.  That's what the AAA studios more or less do, and now we see why.

I've been really tempted to respond to a few comments with "if you ever complain about developers not listening to you or talking to you, don't mention it to me or I'll have to laugh."  But, of course, that wouldn't be kosher directly to say to someone -- they'd be surprised and outraged at such a direct attack on them.  Don't get me started on the irony of that.

Anyway, still no job I'd rather have than being an indie game developer.  But this is one of those days that is absolutely worse quality than any past job I've had.  But that comes with making anything creative that is then sold to a mass audience, from the looks of it.  Compared to being Stephanie Meyer, I actually feel fairly safe.

[Nalgas]

I actually expected more "aren't you ripping off Terraria?" comments, but there have been surprisingly few.

That surprised me, too, but I guess that's good.  What surprised me even more is the number of people who seem baffled by the concept of being able to explore things in 2D with a side view instead of top view.  I mean, even if it is a PC site and they're not as familiar with the Metroid and Castlevania games, you'd think maybe at least Terraria would've occurred to them as an example instead of their brains shutting down when presented with the possibility.  At least a few people had the decency to say, "What the hell is wrong with you?  Haven't you ever played Knytt, Knytt Stories, Aquaria, or any of half a dozen other great 2D side scrolling exploration-based games on the PC from the past few years?" which cheered me up a bit.  Although they somehow didn't mention Cave Story, I don't think, so shame on them.  Heh.

[keith.lamothe]

What surprised me even more is the number of people who seem baffled by the concept of being able to explore things in 2D with a side view instead of top view.

It does have a certain common-sense to it that exploration would be lessened, but it's one area where common sense doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

I don't mind them having objections or being wrong, what gets to me is when someone has an objection, is wrong, and is so utterly convinced that they're right that they haven't even considered the alternatives.  I think the term is "Invincible Ignorance".

[Nalgas]

I don't mind them having objections or being wrong, what gets to me is when someone has an objection, is wrong, and is so utterly convinced that they're right that they haven't even considered the alternatives.  I think the term is "Invincible Ignorance".

Well, yeah.  That's generally what I mean.  The ones who are very enthusiastically wrong and are convinced it can't possibly work because they took one look at it and in 15 seconds dismissed it as impossible.  Not "I don't see a way this could work" but "there must not be a way for this to work because I can't think of one".

[Echo35]

Is ME2 playable without going through that crap?

I... don't even remember, honestly.  I just picked it and ME up during the holiday steam sale for some ludicrously low price.  But I don't remember the DRM of ME2, I just remember it being an incredibly fun game and that blanked out any of the possible nonsense I went through getting it started.

Pro Tip: I may or may not have played it two weeks before it came out with no server checks or DRM. Just saying...

And before you call me pirate, I do own it, I just wanted to play early and without DRM

[Zhaine]

I've been really tempted to respond to a few comments with "if you ever complain about developers not listening to you or talking to you, don't mention it to me or I'll have to laugh."  But, of course, that wouldn't be kosher directly to say to someone -- they'd be surprised and outraged at such a direct attack on them.  Don't get me started on the irony of that.

Anyway, still no job I'd rather have than being an indie game developer.  But this is one of those days that is absolutely worse quality than any past job I've had.  But that comes with making anything creative that is then sold to a mass audience, from the looks of it.  Compared to being Stephanie Meyer, I actually feel fairly safe.

Hah, the unfairness of it summed up in a couple of paragraphs! The internet is an awfully good place to take a quick glance at someone else's labour of love, decide it's not for you and then rip into it entirely unjustifiably and with great venom as well as complete impunity and anonymity.

That said, this change will put off and dismay some people that are not actually assholes and (as you clearly understand) you've got to take that in your stride.

I know you already are, but do keep in mind that unfortunately people who complain speak the loudest

[x4000]

Yep, that's all pretty well understood.  Frankly the reaction has been a lot more positive across the Internet so far than I was afraid it might be.  Anyway, I think that the folks who would really have been interested in this in the first place still will be for the most part, and I think we'll also gain some new people that will now be interested that wouldn't have been before.  That wasn't really the intent, but it was something we knew would happen more or less.

[Wingflier]

I actually expected more "aren't you ripping off Terraria?" comments, but there have been surprisingly few.

You're actually lucky you didn't receive comments like that, because I would have promptly bashed the critics with the obvious reality that Terraria isn't the first 2D side-scrolling adventure game ever made, and that's my nice way of saying it (not constructive I know, but comments that stupid are hard to ignore).

[x4000]

[KingIsaacLinksr]

I actually expected more "aren't you ripping off Terraria?" comments, but there have been surprisingly few.

You're actually lucky you didn't receive comments like that, because I would have promptly bashed the critics with the obvious reality that Terraria isn't the first 2D side-scrolling adventure game ever made, and that's my nice way of saying it (not constructive I know, but comments that stupid are hard to ignore).

People are funny like that.  Everyone claims a game is ripping off a successful game when it looks even vaguely similar to it no matter what and no matter the circumstance.  Sometimes its true, but most of the time it isn't. 

King

[superking]

ahh shame, all that work into procedually generated building inners was for naught. I was kinda looking foward to the diabolo style isometric game, although as you say the character art didn't blend nearly as well as it does with the side view. Will watch with interest

[x4000]

ahh shame, all that work into procedually generated building inners was for naught.

Will still have procedurally generated building interiors, but it will just be a simplified version of what I did before now that I don't have to have the perspective code in there.  I'm still going to release the original code with the perspective in it, too, though, so somebody else can use it.

[Gallant Dragon]

is it just me or are most of the complaints about the animation quality?